Vogel video on magic parchments and Jupiter talisman

[Shulem]

Shulem, Of course the markings on the magic parchments have meanings. There is an extended tradition behind them.

Which is what Vogel's video is all about.

I do not see a connection to the Kinderhook plates however. All that I am aware of was they were made as a trick. I suppose it is possible that some design, from any old source was copied in part. That would allow a possible similarity to some image that had some meaning for somebody else. That is a tenuous connection that could lead most anywhere or nowhere.

Never mind the Kinderhook plates. That is another speculation separate to that of the parchments and symbols copied by Scot and Sibly. I attempted to show how the constellation or star pattern is on the Kinderhook plate but that is altogether separate from the Jubanladace symbols on the parchment.

Scot & Sibly copied the symbols that form the lamen of Jubanladace. Three little circles were meticulously copied by both. What are those circles? That's all I'm asking. They had to be something and it goes back to Dee and Kelley who were immersed in magic and astrology -- planets & stars.

[huckelberry]

Shulem, I was a bit uncertain what you were asking. Sorry I have no knowledge or interest in the subject you are pursuing here.

[Shulem]

Shulem, I was a bit uncertain what you were asking. Sorry I have no knowledge or interest in the subject you are pursuing here.

No worries. I must out of my mind to continue all this BS.

I need a to get a life...

[Dr. Shades]

I don't mean to be nasty or mean, but really, I think it's rather hilarious that I'm the only person on this board that has the balls (pun intended?) to offer a possible or plausible idea supported by examples on what exactly those three little balls on the parchment consist of.

What the hell is wrong with people around here? Say something! Speculate!

Your wish is my command.

For God's sake, people, what the hell do you think those three little balls meant to the person who drew them?

Who gives a damn? Magic isn't real, so no matter what the original magic nutcase thought they meant, he or she was wrong.

Don't just sit there in your comfy little chair and refuse to speak up.

There. I spoke up.

[Shulem]

Who gives a damn? Magic isn't real, so no matter what the original magic nutcase thought they meant, he or she was wrong.

And that includes Smith Family Magic beginning with father Smith and his scheming son which is pretty much the whole point of this thread. Mormonism was founded within the confines of superstition and magic. I think the lesson here is clear: Magic crosses, magic planets, magic stars, magic circles, etc.

So, shall we go hunting for some treasure? I've got a parchment in hand that should net us a great find. Joseph said, "Dig here."

[Shulem]

By ROBERT BROWNE, 1728, London

O God why should the People upon Earth Rejoice, or wherein should the Pleasures of their sensual Delights be fixed?

Prayer of Angel Jubanladace: "Moon hold her Course, or why are the Stars observing an Order"

Let it be understood that Jubanladace pays direct reference to the moon and stars. Could this be related to the design incorporated into his lamen?

Is it possible?

[Shulem]

Occult philosophy involving magical names given for angels seems rather mysterious and is riddled with a great deal of speculation. Here are a couple of bites that express this exact sentiment:

WE must now speak of the characters and seals of spirits. Characters are nothing else than certain unknown letters and writings, preserving the secrets of spirits and their names from the use and reading of prophane men, which the ancient called hieroglyphical, or sacred letters, because devoted to the secrets of God only. They accounted it unlawful to write the mysteries of God with those characters which prophane and vulgar things were wrote. Whence Porphyry says, "that the ancients were willing to conceal God and divine virtues, by sensible figures and by those things which are visible, yet signifying invisible things; "as being willing to deliver great mysteries in sacred letters, and explain them in certain symbolical figures; as when they dedicated all round things to the world, the sun and the moon, hope and fortune; a circle to the heavens, and parts of a circle to the moon; pyramids and obelisks to the fire, a cylinder to the sun and earth.

You must know that angelical spirits, seeing they are of a pure intellect, and altogether incorporeal, are not marked with any marks or characters, or any other human signs; but we, not otherwise knowing their essence or quality, do, from their names, or works, or otherwise, devote and consecrate to them figures and marks, by which we cannot any way compel them to us, but by which we rise up to them, as not to be known by such characters and figures, and, first of all, we do set our senses, both inward and outward, upon them; then, by a certain admiration of our reason, we are induced to a religious veneration of them; and then are wrapt with our whole mind into an ecstatical adoration; and then with a wonderful belief, an undoubted hope, and quickening love, calling upon them in spirit and truth by true names and characters, do obtain from them that virtue or power which we desire.

And so, it really does seem to be a bit of a mystery in ascribing a true definition for certain characters given in Jubanladace's name as represented in the Smith Family Parchments. But let's be perfectly clear that these things were had by the Smith's and were considered sacred in the magical use in which they were intended -- treasure seeking. I'm sure Dan Vogel would agree.

But the characters which are understood by the revelations of spirits take their virtue from thence, because they are, as it were, certain hidden seals, making the harmony of some divinity: either they are signs of a covenant entered into, and of a promised or plighted faith, or of obedience. And those characters cannot by any other means be found out.

We can be sure the three round circles formed within the name of Jubanladace are standard icons used to represent or express certain things -- but what? Note the "Round" is given as the second symbol on the first row in Barrett's chapter on The Cabala, or Ceremonial Magic:

[Shulem]

Although the Smith family professed a pious belief in New Testament Jesus, the family desires and quest to discover hidden treasures with the aid and assistance of magical devices (parchments) was something they keenly set their hearts on. I can only imagine biblical Jesus making a shameful example of Smith family magic practices as they set their hearts on the things of the world rather than heaven. The Smith's were involved in what can be described as nothing short of witchcraft and the summoning of spirits with faith that treasures could be obtained by means of employing occult-like enchantments.

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth (like unto the Smith family), where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves (and treasure seekers) break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves (and Smiths) do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

So, the burning question that remains to be asked of the hypocritical leader of the Mormon faith is rather simple: WHY did he not burn the occult parchments after coming to a realization that real treasure is that which is spiritual rather than that which is of the material earth?

WHY didn't Smith repent and destroy those devices which served as a magic impulse to practice a form of witchcraft which Jesus never would have approved? The name of angel Jubanladace had nothing to do with the Bible but was conjured up by the likes of John Dee via means of his sorcerer, Edward Kelley.

Joseph Smith set his heart on worldly treasures and retained the occult-like items that represented the true desire of his heart -- Magic Parchments.

To me, it's a bloody revelation in exposing Joseph Smith as a sham.

[huckelberry]

Although the Smith family professed a pious belief in New Testament Jesus, the family desires and quest to discover hidden treasures with the aid and assistance of magical devices (parchments) was something they keenly set their hearts on. I can only imagine biblical Jesus making a shameful example of Smith family magic practices as they set their hearts on the things of the world rather than heaven. The Smith's were involved in what can be described as nothing short of witchcraft and the summoning of spirits with faith that treasures could be obtained by means of employing occult-like enchantments.

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth (like unto the Smith family), where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves (and treasure seekers) break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves (and Smiths) do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

So, the burning question that remains to be asked of the hypocritical leader of the Mormon faith is rather simple: WHY did he not burn the occult parchments after coming to a realization that real treasure is that which is spiritual rather than that which is of the material earth?

WHY didn't Smith repent and destroy those devices which served as a magic impulse to practice a form of witchcraft which Jesus never would have approved? The name of angel Jubanladace had nothing to do with the Bible but was conjured up by the likes of John Dee via means of his sorcerer, Edward Kelley.

Joseph Smith set his heart on worldly treasures and retained the occult-like items that represented the true desire of his heart -- Magic Parchments.

To me, it's a bloody revelation in exposing Joseph Smith as a sham.

Hi Shulem, you cause a couple of thoughts for me. I find myself thinking that despite a priority of Spirit in importance the physical still has its importance and use. I would not feel betrayed by fate if I found a treasure.If substantial I would feel obligations about its use.

I cannot see inside Josephs mind so my thoughts are a bit speculative. I do not think Joseph felt a need to repent of his magic. I think magic remained a bedrock of his thought. I think the magic world view is the source or justification for his peculiar theology of an endless series of limited spirits becoming divine by mastery of the rules and power that govern the universe. (the source of magic power). That and his focus on the power of ritual rules to acess the power, (or is that to involve people in his sphere of personal power?)

I think the power of theater was learned from magic. In that way the symbols represent deep knowledge and actual meaning is not relevant. To you the circles represent Orions belt.It is very possible they meant that to some others as well but for the purpose, theater, that Joseph put them it does not matter, they are the outward show to be gotten past as one advances in knowledge of Magic.

[Shulem]

I do not think Joseph felt a need to repent of his magic.

He didn't fully repent, per se, because the artifacts used for treasure seeking ventures were retained rather than disposed of. Interestingly, in a letter to Oliver Cowdery in 1834 and published in the Messenger and Advocate, Smith made a public confession that up until the time he turned 21 while living in Palmyra and Manchester, he was guilty of having "fell into many vices and follies" which he felt were common wrongdoings of a typical youth. So he forgave himself and moved on. Good for him, I won't fault him for that.

Later, in the 1838 Elders' Journal, Smith confessed that he was a "money digger, but it was never very profitable," as if he should be excused for his misdeeds or failures in seeking treasure. But the fact remains, the magic parchments used for occult-like rites were retained and kept in possession as a reminder of ventures that would later be renounced and replaced for the quest of spiritual treasure. If Smith had fully repented he would have destroyed the parchments used to practice his vices and follies. But they were retained and that is my point! He should have gotten rid of those parchments just as his descendants (Joseph F. Smith & Joseph Fielding Smith) would have gotten rid of playing cards or worse, TAROT cards. Imagine Joseph Fielding Smith with a deck of TAROT cards kept locked up in his private bureau!

So, the fact the parchments survived is a definite indicator that not all things are in order as self-righteous Latter-day Saints today might like to think.