Does character still matter in politics?

[ceeboo]

My understanding, if correct, is that there has been, and continues to be, large numbers of people disaffiliating from both sides of our failing two-party system. The nonsense is alive and well on both sides.

I want the two-part system to end. So, I am not unhappy to see it doing poorly.

Well, being that I have posted and believe that our two-party system is failing us all, I obviously agree.

That said, one side is a clear danger to democracy right now, so my particular ire is aimed at that party.

I appreciate your opinion - I just don't share it. Do you think that there are some Americans (millions of them perhaps?) that believe the other side represents the danger America is facing and currently faces? That's a serious question that I would be interested in you answering if you're willing.

Understood - For what it's worth, I have no problem with you coming to your own conclusions and casting your vote based on said conclusions. Here is what I do have an issue with: If people come to different conclusions that are not the same as yours, what then? Should they be allowed to cast their vote without being required to answer to those who voted differently? I believe all American citizens have the right to vote without having to justify/answer to/explain said vote to all those who oppose.

f the results of those votes are the end of the Republic for everyone, that changes things for me.

I am happy to allow you the room to offer your opinion, I don't buy it - I believe these are politically motivated fear tactics designed to control voters and stoke fear amongst the citizens.

I think it is good for people to engage openly with these problems, and, yes, that means Trump supporters should be criticized for supporting a politician who is a clear threat to the Republic.

As I said, I don't buy what your trying to sell. I would suggest that more and more Americans are not buying either - many who used to buy it but are now seeing a potentially nefarious pattern that has been developing for eight straight years now that has resulted in this common sales pitch. I guess we will find out if the majority of Americans buy it very soon.

I need an outlet. This board is my outlet.

I understand and I am glad you have a place to vent and release whatever it is that needs releasing.

I regret that my biting criticism of the Republican Party makes some people feel deeply offended.

Again, this isn't about offending people of feelings in my opinion. It is about the toxic political rhetoric that plays a contributing factor in damaging an already damaged country and further dividing a people that is already extremely divided.

I feel terrified to live through Project 2025 Trump World, so my sense of guilt for saddening the people who are eager to make that happen is increasingly weak.

I understand that this is how you feel - I understand it and I think you ought to cast your vote accordingly. What I don't think you are taking into consideration is that there are millions of people who do not share your terror or your view. I would suggest that there are millions of American citizens that are terrified of the last (almost) four years and are equally terrified at the thought of another four years on Biden/Democratic leadership. That's why we all get to vote for what we think is best for our shared country.

I am eager to unite with anyone who wants to save our democracy from Trump,

Nonsense! That's like saying you are eager to unit with anyone who thinks, believes, and has the same perspectives/opinions as you do. That's not uniting - That's a rigged game that can deliver only one outcome, divisiveness.

[Kishkumen]

I appreciate your opinion - I just don't share it. Do you think that there are some Americans (millions of them perhaps?) that believe the other side represents the danger America is facing and currently faces? That's a serious question that I would be interested in you answering if you're willing.

I understand that there are such people. I feel reassured that non-Trumpists across the political spectrum agree that Trumpism is the problem. Let me out it this way: I am not so enamored of my own opinion to think that what ever I happen to believe is the truth. That said, when I see my own judgments confirmed by sober people with whom I often disagree on a variety of issues but nevertheless respect, I start to think that I may be on to something.

I have had my judgments of Trump and Trumpism confirmed by so many serious, substantive, experienced, and upright people who otherwise do not see eye to eye with me on a variety of issues that I feel highly confident that my spidey sense is dead right here. Moreover, Roman historians spend a lot of time thinking about the end of a republic. Most of my Roman history professor friends agree that Trumpism is an existential threat to our political system. Some of them are longtime conservatives. Real conservatives, not populist authoritarian Trumpist “conservatives.”

So, while I agree that people can feel differently, I have very powerful, persuasive, and even compelling reasons to conclude that they are totally wrong.

I am happy to allow you the room to offer your opinion, I don't buy it - I believe these are politically motivated fear tactics designed to control voters and stoke fear amongst the citizens.

Political motivation is going to be in the mix. Sure. But there is a level of cynicism that I believe backfires. Based on what you have said, I think you might be there. I have some sympathy for that. Here’s the thing: not everyone who comes offering salvation is a savior. Sometimes people will come in selling their wares who have no intention to save you and probably would not know how to do it even if they were genuine in their intentions. Trump has such an abysmal track record that I consider it highly unwise to trust him with ANYTHING. He is a fraud and a failure. And that is not just an opinion. Go read up on Trump University.

Plato provided a hypothetical scenario that I think applies. A doctor and a sophist (persuasive orator) come to a sick man offering to cure him. The doctor has the expertise, but the sophist knows how to persuade people that he is the right person to do the job, even though he is unqualified to do it. The sick person is persuaded by the sophist, his condition worsens, and he dies.

Trump is the low-rent version of the sophist. He is a skilled salesperson who knows nothing about our system of government. When he comes barking about his answers to the problem, turn away. He does not know and he has no answers. Trumpists are the sick patients who have turned to the sophist for the cure because they don’t like the doctor.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Speaking of weaponized labels…

Conservative rhetoric often employs various labels to frame liberals in a negative light. Here are a dozen such labels frequently used:

1. **Socialist** or **Communist** – Implying extreme leftist economic ideologies.
2. **Snowflake** – Suggesting that liberals are overly sensitive or easily offended.
3. **Lib** or **Lib-tard** – A derogatory play on the term "liberal," insinuating stupidity.
4. **Woke** – Criticizing excessive political correctness or awareness of social issues.
5. **Elitist** – Suggesting that liberals consider themselves superior or out of touch with ordinary people.
6. **Bleeding Heart** – Implying that liberals are excessively compassionate to a fault.
7. **Anti-American** – Accusing liberals of lacking patriotism or undermining national values.
8. **Tree Hugger** – Mocking environmental concerns or activism.
9. **Globalist** – Portraying liberals as favoring international interests over national ones.
10. **PC Police** – Criticizing liberals for enforcing political correctness.
11. **Radical Leftist** – Painting liberals as extreme or out-of-mainstream.
12. **Liberal Media** – Accusing the media of having a biased, liberal slant.

Is Ceeboo policing fellow conservatives and Christians over the labels they use to divide people?

- Doc

Good question. Rush Limbaugh turned the word “liberal” into a slur. He practically spat it out of his mouth whenever he said it.

I have to say, though, that I have a hard time understanding how the words conservative or Republican really fit the GOP any longer. They are neither conservative nor committed to the Republic. I think terms like authoritarian, extremist, and Trumpian are more appropriate.

The Republican Party effectively ceased to exist as such when they made Trump their platform.

How about the Conservative Republican Authoritarian Party?

- Doc

[Kishkumen]

How about the Conservative Republican Authoritarian Party?

- Doc

The words conservative and republican don’t fit Trumpism at all. Trump Party is the most appropriate name.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Ceeboo claims I’m dropping whatabouts to distract from the thread, but let me give you, dear reader, a shining example of conservative divisiveness that Ceeboo conveniently overlooked on this very thread!

viewtopic.php?p=2866192#p2866192

I have to agree with Ceeboo. These types of accusation threads are meant to divide - if those stupid Republicans could just pull their heads out of their asses then we'd be fine. Seems like a different tact is needed to convince people to not vote for the circus master. Maybe discuss issues? Maybe resurrect Sanders and his 2016 proposals? The country was aching for populist policies and tired of endless war, but, queen Hillary had to be annointed and now look at where we are.

I think you guys are blaming the wrong people. Trump should lose big to a better candidate than the corpse he's now facing. It looks like he won't and y'all better pray Rachel Maddow's stasi-like predictions for the next Trump administration don't come true or some here might face his retribution for their support of russiagate and the laptop lie.

Just one paragraph later and he’s literally doing the thing he is complaining about!

Wild. Big blind spot.

- Doc

[Kishkumen]

Nonsense!
That's like saying you are eager to unit with anyone who thinks, believes, and has the same perspectives/opinions as you do. That's not uniting - That's a rigged game that can deliver only one outcome, divisiveness.

No, ceeboo. Lots of people with different views and policy positions know that Trumpism is bad news. They are uniting against Trump. If the GOP were functional and had a candidate within the range of small r republican, then they would support that candidate instead of Biden. They are supporting Biden because he is the only viable possibility to save the Republic from Trumpism right now.

Trumpism is not just another political viewpoint. It is a poison pill to our entire system and way of life.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

How about the Conservative Republican Authoritarian Party?

- Doc

The words conservative and republican don’t fit Trumpism at all. Trump Party is the most appropriate name.

But, CRAP seems like a better way to present what they are, what they offer, and how they’ll govern?

- Doc

[Manetho]

I am eager to unite with anyone who wants to save our democracy from Trump,

Nonsense! That's like saying you are eager to unit with anyone who thinks, believes, and has the same perspectives/opinions as you do. That's not uniting - That's a rigged game that can deliver only one outcome, divisiveness.

Wrong.

In the lecture that I linked in another thread, the lecturer describes general patterns in how democracies can collapse into authoritarianism. One of the things he discusses is Juan Linz's definition of "loyal democrats" and "semi-loyal democrats", referring here not to the political party but to a commitment to democracy. When faced with an authoritarian movement among their political allies, loyal democrats are willing to align themselves with their own political opposition to defeat the authoritarian movement. They prioritize the survival of democracy itself over their policy goals. Semi-loyal democrats don't do that.

But I want to suggest that the most dangerous feature of the contemporary Republican Party is its refusal to break with forces that threaten democracy. Although open election deniers and advocates of violence remain a minority in the Republican Party leadership, semi-loyalty is now pervasive.

Liz Cheney offers you an example of a loyal democratic response to the 2020 election crisis. She publicly broke with Trump, she publicly repudiated Trump, she joined forces with Democrats to hold him accountable for the January 6th insurrection. That is textbook loyal democratic behavior. But the vast majority of Republicans responded with semi-loyalty. Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy knew Joe Biden won the 2020 election. By most
accounts, they were pretty deeply troubled by Trump's anti-democratic behavior. But they enabled it anyway. They protected Trump from accountability by refusing to impeach and convict him, they blocked creation of an independent commission to investigate the January 6th insurrection, and they continue to this day to say they'll support him if he's the Republican nominee in 2024. This is what Daniel and I call the banality of authoritarianism. McCarthy, McConnell, and other mainstream Republicans didn't actively try to kill democracy. They simply prioritized their short-term political ambitions, and they concluded that those short-term political ambitions were best served by enabling Trump's authoritarianism.

While serving in Congress under Trump, Cheney voted in support of Trump's agenda more often than some of her Republican colleagues. She believed in it. But she prioritized the survival of our democracy over her policy goals. The reason this looks like a purely partisan division is that the overwhelming majority of Republican officeholders are now either authoritarians or semi-loyalists. The Liz Cheneys and Adam Kinzingers look like an irrelevant blip by comparison, but that's a sign of how far gone the party already is.

[huckelberry]

I understand that this is how you feel - I understand it and I think you ought to cast your vote accordingly. What I don't think you are taking into consideration is that there are millions of people who do not share your terror or your view. I would suggest that there are millions of American citizens that are terrified of the last (almost) four years and are equally terrified at the thought of another four years on Biden/Democratic leadership. That's why we all get to vote for what we think is best for our shared country.

Ceeboo, I can see you are looking at a valid concern for both divisiveness and the harm done by painting large groups of people with vague attacks like calling them racists or uncaring.

It is clear you care but I do not actually know much about what beyond stuff we all care about. I think that people not supporting Trump are genuinely confused about why people do support him. It is like your comment about fearing the last four years. I have absolutely no idea what you are afraid of. I find it difficult to avoid extreme statements to express the degree of my confusion.

To allow myself a little color I will observe that I quit watching fox entirely some eight years ago. Without their hourly minute of hate sessions I do not know what terrible things are happening. Well there have been more tornadoes.

[Kishkumen]

But, CRAP seems like a better way to present what they are, what they offer, and how they’ll govern?

- Doc

Ah, derp. I really missed that joke!