A View From the Left

[Dr Exiled]

Have all you folks on the right forgotten this recent set of events? MAGA representatives and Fox News accused the President of ordering the FBI to assassinate Trump during the search of Mar al Lago. That was not just a lie — it was a 100% malicious lie. It was the equivalent of throwing gasoline on an out of control fire.

What were the initial reactions by opinion leaders after the assassination attempt? Democratic leaders, including the President, threw water on the fire. They all condemned the shooting and all political violence. The Biden campaign went dark to let things cool off.

The first reactions from the other side threw gasoline on the fire. J.D. Vance, a guy who wants to be Vice President of the United States, accused Biden of causing the shooting. Yet, never once has Vance ever suggested that Trump and R politicians should tone down their rhetoric, which has explicitly called for violence against their political enemies.

To keep informed on what the left is up to, I read a few sites, including Daily Kos. The site has two rules that the membership and the site owners enforce: no suggestion or encouragement of violence and no promotion of conspiracy theories. Last night, the few folks who tried to push a false flag narrative got hide rated into oblivion. The same with any suggestion of employing violence. Contrast that with the toxic stew of conspiracy theories and incitement of violence you find on any right wing site.

Now, to avoid any misunderstanding, I’m not saying that that aren’t folks on the left who engage in some of the same behavior. But those on the right who are meming one sentence uttered by the President while giving a free pass to the firehouse of violent rhetoric coming from their own side — including one Donald J. Trump — come off as 100% phony.

I think I have a smidgen off street creed in that department. I’ve taken a fair amount of crap for opposing the demonization of others by people who are on my side of the political divide. I’ve tried to push back against over the top reactions to Court decisions. I’m not claiming sainthood, but I think I’ve done my bit to try and push my “side” away from the edge of the cliff that we are teetering on.

The problem with inciting fear, anger, and resentment in a population is that you never can anticipate the results. A mob is an uncontrollable monster that often ends up eating its own. Inciting fear, anger and resentment is the authoritarian playbook — it’s how people who value their freedom end up handing it over lock, stock and barrel to dictators and tyrants. Neither Putin’s Russia nor Orban’s Hungary are what the founders were aiming at. Not even close.

Four years ago, I took a break from here because the political rancor had become personally intolerable. I might need to do that again.

I am at wits end with this problem. It is like Mopologetics but much, much worse. I think it is because political parties are identities, and the invitation to people to face something rotten in their own house is met with denial and anger. I am not a registered Democrat. More than that, I really don't know how to classify myself politically any longer. But I do know this about myself: in my view, the facts show that the GOP is dead, having been replaced by Trumpism operating in the shell that was the Republican Party, and that Party of Trump has completely gone off the rails. The whole thing is depressing beyond words, and extremely frightening.

I just got back from visiting my dad, and he claims not to like Trump, and yet he gets very angry if I get too pointed in my criticism of 45. My dad has a PhD in Physics and considers himself to be a very rational person, but it is obvious to me that he really doesn't like liberalism and sees it as a destructive force in our country. Whenever I visit him, at least once during the visit the temperature will get pretty warm in the conversation, to the point that it worries me. In essence, there is no way I can be perfectly frank about my thoughts on Trump, unless I want to have a very heated argument that he will end by getting extremely angry.

Right now, Republican politicians are falsely blaming Joe Biden and the Democratic Party for the assassination attempt, and yet there is insufficient evidence to show what actually motivated the shooter. Think about it: they are willing to lie to use this extremely volatile and provocative situation for political gain. I just don't think they have any brakes anymore. I find what they are doing completely disgusting. Absolutely reprehensible. I should hope that everyone of good conscience and a modicum of wisdom could see the same. But there are many people out there that just don't.

I agree with you that this is a propaganda problem. I agree with you that it started with Limbaugh. Limbaugh taught self-identifying conservatives to hate "liberals." I think everyone outside of the Trump movement is justified in worrying about the possibility that someday their neighbors will come for them and will feel perfectly justified in doing so. Why? Because of the propaganda, and the irresponsible actions of their leaders, who, instead of putting a lid on emotionally charged situations, shamelessly use them for political advantage. This attempt on Trump is more of the same, and the stakes are even higher right now. Higher perhaps than they have ever been, excepting January 6.

They refuse to believe that the armed people attacking the police on that day were violent insurrectionists. They refuse to believe that Project 2025 is a threat to our Republic. They refuse to believe that Donald Trump is a threat to democracy. Day in and day out, we see it right here on this board. I am heartsick with how this is going. And really freaked out. If I don't go online or look at the news, then I can get some rest from my cares. I can smile and wave at my neighbors, who probably vote Republican but I don't want to know, and not everything seems so dark.

Maybe it's you that is overreacting? It's probably hard to see for you, but many others here do. Fear is the problem. Anger is the problem. Fear and anger cause misinterpretation of events and allows the Rush Limbaughs and Rachel Maddows of the media to gain power over you by their constant chanting of whatever nonsense they are pushing on a given day. It's the basis of propaganda on both sides and it looks like you are falling for the left side of the uniparty rhetoric.

[Kishkumen]

Maybe it's you that is overreacting? It's probably hard to see for you, but many others here do. Fear is the problem. Anger is the problem. Fear and anger cause misinterpretation of events and allows the Rush Limbaughs and Rachel Maddows of the media to gain power over you by their constant chanting of whatever nonsense they are pushing on a given day. It's the basis of propaganda on both sides and it looks like you are falling for the left side of the uniparty rhetoric.

Who are these "many," Dr Exiled? This is your constant refrain. I will give you this, if Gadianton tells me that I am overreacting, I will dial it back. Sorry that you don't have the kind of credibility with me that would move me to alter my posting habits. You are infected with irrational bothsidesism. That you seem to equate Rush Limbaugh and Rachel Maddow is very revealing. I have experience listening to both people, and they are quite different animals.

[Some Schmo]

You are infected with irrational bothsidesism.

I remember telling a conservative friend of mine back in 2012 that people who complain about both sides tend to be former Republicans who are rational enough to see their own side as full of crap but irrationally critical of the left.

There's plenty on the left to complain about without having to go off the rails like certain "independents" tend to do.

[Res Ipsa]

IT WASN’T A DEMOCRAT
IT WASN’T A ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT
IT WASN’T AN LGBT PERSON
IT WASN’T AN AFRICAN AMERICAN
IT WASN’T ANYONE HE SAID IS POISENING THE BLOOD OF THE AMERICA
HE WAS WHITE YOUNG AND A REGISTERED REPUBLICAN

And this is exactly why I feel in my bones that we are on the brink of a truly awful period in America.

[Kishkumen]

I remember telling a conservative friend of mine back in 2012 that people who complain about both sides tend to be former Republicans who are rational enough to see their own side as full of crap but irrationally critical of the left.

There's plenty on the left to complain about without having to go off the rails like certain "independents" tend to do.

Yes. I think it is possible to be critical of both sides, but I don't think the evidence supports the position that both sides are equally culpable for the deep doodoo we find ourselves in. We have seen forty years of demonization of the left. We have seen decades of false accusations about the left. Now, lying, accusing, conspiracy theorizing, etc., are mostly coming from the right and aimed at the left. The response from the right is to call facts, predictions, etc., "conspiracy theories" or "conspiracies." It seems that no evidence that points to unfavorable conclusions about the right will be accepted by people aligned with the right.

[ceeboo]

I am not a registered Democrat. More than that, I really don't know how to classify myself politically any longer. But I do know this about myself: in my view, the facts show that the GOP is dead, having been replaced by Trumpism operating in the shell that was the Republican Party, and that Party of Trump has completely gone off the rails. The whole thing is depressing beyond words, and extremely frightening.

Perhaps I can help you eliminate one possibility to classify yourself politically? Given this post alone, you should not classify yourself as a Republican.

I just got back from visiting my dad, and he claims not to like Trump, and yet he gets very angry if I get too pointed in my criticism of 45.

Maybe your dad really does not like Trump but thinks your criticism is unfair, unwarranted, and over-the-top?

My dad has a PhD in Physics and considers himself to be a very rational person, but it is obvious to me that he really doesn't like liberalism and sees it as a destructive force in our country.

Your dad, as well as millions of other very rational people, can be both. They can be very rational and believe liberalism it is a destructive force in our country. It seems that you are suggesting that one must be politically liberal in order to be very rational. Is this what you are suggesting?

Whenever I visit him, at least once during the visit the temperature will get pretty warm in the conversation, to the point that it worries me. In essence, there is no way I can be perfectly frank about my thoughts on Trump, unless I want to have a very heated argument that he will end by getting extremely angry.

Would it be okay for me to offer a bit of advice?

Your relationship with your dad does not need to involve politics. It does not need to possess heated discussion about Trump. To allow some yahoo like Trump (or Biden) to negatively impact or influence a father/son relationship is on you (and /or your father). You (and/or your father) is/are giving this power to people that ought not have such power. Love your dad, hug your dad, laugh with you dad and don't allow politics to intrude in such a precious and valuable space like this.

Right now, Republican politicians are falsely blaming Joe Biden and the Democratic Party for the assassination attempt

I have seen R politicians suggesting statements Biden has made that may have incited violence - It's the toxic rhetoric, from both sides, that really needs to stop and really needs to bring the heat level way down.

and yet there is insufficient evidence to show what actually motivated the shooter.

Didn't you suggest motives in another thread?

Think about it: they are willing to lie to use this extremely volatile and provocative situation for political gain. I just don't think they have any brakes anymore. I find what they are doing completely disgusting. Absolutely reprehensible. I should hope that everyone of good conscience and a modicum of wisdom could see the same. But there are many people out there that just don't.

Both sides use any and all events for political gain. Unless we will surrender to this reality, we will all remain in these separate political silos drenched in hypocrisy.

I agree with you that this is a propaganda problem. I agree with you that it started with Limbaugh.

Do you see this propaganda problem beginning and ending with Limbaugh who died in 2021? Do you think there are news/radio people on the left that engage in divisive propaganda?

Limbaugh taught self-identifying conservatives to hate "liberals."

Are there any people that teach self-identifying liberals to hate conservatives? Maybe we shouldn't allow ourselves to be taught such things by anyone. Maybe we should take ownership and personal responsibility for our own hate (if we have it) - That way, we would at least have the opportunity to modify and/or change this hatred within us, if we choose to.

I think everyone outside of the Trump movement is justified in worrying about the possibility that someday their neighbors will come for them and will feel perfectly justified in doing so. Why? Because of the propaganda, and the irresponsible actions of their leaders, who, instead of putting a lid on emotionally charged situations, shamelessly use them for political advantage. This attempt on Trump is more of the same, and the stakes are even higher right now. Higher perhaps than they have ever been, excepting January 6.

If that's how you feel and if that is what you believe, you should cast your vote accordingly. Other people, who do not share your feelings and beliefs, will cast their vote accordingly.

They refuse to believe that the armed people attacking the police on that day were violent insurrectionists.

The armed people? You mean the sticks and clubs? You said that like they had guns or something. Yeah, the few that did this ought to be charged and face a jury of their peers. If you're talking about, for example, 80-year-old grandma who was walking the halls, no, I don't think she should be facing a long prison term. Lastly, that was not an insurrection. It was a riot and those who were violent ought to face charges.

They refuse to believe that Donald Trump is a threat to democracy.

'"They" refuse to believe it because they don't find the claim to have merit. Many think it's strategic attempted political fear mongering used to incite fear among the voters.

Day in and day out, we see it right here on this board.

What you see day in and day out on this board, is very different from what I see day in and day out on this board. You have eyes and I have eyes, but we see extremely different things. How do you suppose that's possible? My guess, each of us have bias and each of us are seeing what our powerful narrative drivers (mainstream media) provides us to see. The information we consume is provided by people who decide what we see and who decide what we don't see.

I am heartsick with how this is going.

Me too.

I can smile and wave at my neighbors, who probably vote Republican but I don't want to know, and not everything seems so dark.

You should smile at your neighbors no matter who they vote for. Their vote is not where this darkness is coming from.

[yellowstone123]

"firehouse rhetoric" comes from both side's extremes that are creating paranoia. It does concern me that both sides point to each other not seeing their own part in the chaos. How many times have we been told that Trump will bring in a Hitler-level dictatorship. It all over this board. Donald Trump and Hitler are not even in the same universe. Even Sam Harris has said that he generally feels sorry for those who have fallen for his - whatever type charisma he reportedly has - but Donald Trump is nothing like Hitler; Harris's concern was the same process that brought Donald Trump in could actually bring a Hitler-level threat. Then you have publications, main stream periodicals that are putting Trump's face with a Hitler mustache. Lots of them during the last six months, some showing an obese Trump in an Uncle Sam costume goose stepping. YOU HAVE BIDEN OVER AND OVER SAYING HE IS A THREAT AND MUST BE STOPPED. CNN and MSNBC putting on guest that says Trump must be eliminated in many disgusting ways. So then you have a crazy little zoomer who watches this over and over and over and decides to action. As the actor in Casablanca said, I'm shocked, shocked that there is gambling in this place as another actor walks up and says, "sir, your earnings' in which he takes the money, puts it in his pocket and leaves.

Hmmmm . . . . .

There is only so much of this "bothsidesism" that I can accept. I am sorry, but Trump actually is a threat to democracy and the Republic. When a politician says wildly irresponsible things and foments violence, that has real consequences. Why should people not be worried about what Trump intends to do? I agree that he must be stopped, and the vast majority of the time, we all agree that he must be stopped through the fair application of the criminal justice system or at the ballot box. Either method is legitimate.

The behavior of the two sides, even their extremes, is pretty lopsidedly bad in the Republican camp.

When has Biden said that the Constitution would have to be suspended?

When has Biden ever said that he would be a dictator on any day?

When did Biden tell his followers that they needed to march on the Capitol during the count of electoral ballots?

Do I think the divide is bad? Yes! Do I think that the temperature is too high? Yes. But that does not change the many ways in which the party of Trump has obviously gone off the rails and that Trump's behavior is unacceptable.

sorry, the mainstream media and the Biden administration has repeatedly said that Trump must be stopped. Some say he must be taken out. He is nothing like Hitler. Your paranoia of Trump and this-is-so going-to-happen if he is elected is hard to understand. It's completely bizarre. Do you even understand Hitler and the result of his craziness resulted in 50 million deaths. You can highlight and cherry-pick all you want. Those half-hour shows against Trump are not highlighting and cherry-picking but flat out saying he must be stopped. MSNBC has already taken Morning Joe off the air. Do you think the cartoons of a goose stepping Trump, the Trump with a Hilter-like mustache is going to continue from now on until the election. I don't think so because it was so over the top that those in charge of the companies are for the first time in six months stopping and wonder if they are part of the problem and could be legally liable for what happened. No one here can say that as it's up to a judge that sees the complaint. Remember you can't yell fire in a movie theater when there is no fire. I hope Trump and his children sue the FVCK out the media, especially Morning Joe and Joy Reid and those who created the paranoia that has so gripped the left. If you can sue the crazy far-right Alex Jones for his crazy thoughts and the harm his media company caused, then Trump and his attorney's can find out what media giants and publications which created an atmosphere of paranoia which resulted in him getting shot.

[Some Schmo]

I remember telling a conservative friend of mine back in 2012 that people who complain about both sides tend to be former Republicans who are rational enough to see their own side as full of crap but irrationally critical of the left.

There's plenty on the left to complain about without having to go off the rails like certain "independents" tend to do.

Yes. I think it is possible to be critical of both sides, but I don't think the evidence supports the position that both sides are equally culpable for the deep doodoo we find ourselves in. We have seen forty years of demonization of the left. We have seen decades of false accusations about the left. Now, lying, accusing, conspiracy theorizing, etc., are mostly coming from the right and aimed at the left. The response from the right is to call facts, predictions, etc., "conspiracy theories" or "conspiracies." It seems that no evidence that points to unfavorable conclusions about the right will be accepted by people aligned with the right.

Well put.

[Kishkumen]

Some say he must be taken out.

Give me some examples, please.

[Dr Exiled]

Maybe it's you that is overreacting? It's probably hard to see for you, but many others here do. Fear is the problem. Anger is the problem. Fear and anger cause misinterpretation of events and allows the Rush Limbaughs and Rachel Maddows of the media to gain power over you by their constant chanting of whatever nonsense they are pushing on a given day. It's the basis of propaganda on both sides and it looks like you are falling for the left side of the uniparty rhetoric.

Who are these "many," Dr Exiled? This is your constant refrain. I will give you this, if Gadianton tells me that I am overreacting, I will dial it back. Sorry that you don't have the kind of credibility with me that would move me to alter my posting habits. You are infected with irrational bothsidesism. That you seem to equate Rush Limbaugh and Rachel Maddow is very revealing. I have experience listening to both people, and they are quite different animals.

Just a suggestion. I think you are wasting your time giving in to fear and anger. As to the bothsideism, no, I think you misinterpret what I am saying and what I have been saying for a while. We are controlled by a uniparty that Clinton helped to usher in with his third way. It uses its minions to divide the population so we don't remedy the steady upward flow of wealth that has occurred over the past 50 years. You really need to stop being so afraid.