Hersh: Obama Did It

[honorentheos]

So you like the narrative you already supported on the board you are espousing here which is just clear thinking? The quality of the evidence be damned?

If only there was a word for that ...

[honorentheos]

But all of those questions can still exist in a universe where Hersh's narrative is incorrect.

It's interesting that this narrative builds on things we know from the sources involved. We know Schumer and Pelosi spoke with Biden and voiced concerns. We know Biden was facing pressures to step down. We know he was resistant to that suggestion. So what's unique here? The insertion that Obama directly threatened Biden with the 25th amendment. Not Harris, not his cabinet, Obama. And that aligns with many prominent narratives pushed by conservative media: Biden is weak and unfit for office, Obama is a supervillain mastermind manipulating Biden and the Democratic party, Pelosi is a manipulative bitch, etc, etc, etc.

And the source for this little extra nugget? An official of some kind whose qualifications are they are experienced in fundraising, spilling tea to an 80-something journalist most recently famous for claiming Joe Biden ordered a Russian pipeline to be sabotaged.

[Dr Exiled]

Or another equally plausible scenario.

Obama, Biden's long time friend and respected political ally, reached out to him after several weeks of Biden being relentlessly pressured to step down from a whole host of people. They had an earnest conversation and Biden finally came to the conclusion that it was the right thing to do for the party and the future of America. Obama could have been deeply empathetic, taken a similar slant to me saying "it doesn't matter if you and I believe you can do it, the people don't" or the conversation could have been much harder and brutal... but the point remains, an actual 25th amendment threat isn't even remotely necessary for the results to look the same.

We can argue about whether the pressure was fair or right, whether it was right to do this post primary, or if Harris should have been the de facto choice for Democrats. But all of those questions can still exist in a universe where Hersh's narrative is incorrect.

This definitely is a possibility.

I think it's too early to make a decision on this, but to immediately discount contrary reporting to the blessed narrative isn't helpful. That type of thinking seems to belong in the forums above.

[Dr Exiled]

But all of those questions can still exist in a universe where Hersh's narrative is incorrect.

It's interesting that this narrative builds on things we know from the sources involved. We know Schumer and Pelosi spoke with Biden and voiced concerns. We know Biden was facing pressures to step down. We know he was resistant to that suggestion. So what's unique here? The insertion that Obama directly threatened Biden with the 25th amendment. Not Harris, not his cabinet, Obama. And that aligns with many prominent narratives pushed by conservative media: Biden is weak and unfit for office, Obama is a supervillain mastermind manipulating Biden and the Democratic party, Pelosi is a manipulative bitch, etc, etc, etc.

And the source for this little extra nugget? An official of some kind whose qualifications are they are experienced in fundraising, spilling tea to an 80-something journalist most recently famous for claiming Joe Biden ordered a Russian pipeline to be sabotaged.

Aren't most if not all politicians manipulative? I don't trust Trump as far as I can throw him and wonder about JD Vance being controlled by his billionaire benefactor. See, skepticism at work buddy. Anyway, I like Kennedy.

Now, it still is possible that someone in fundraising was near where the action was happening and truthfully relayed it to Mr. Hersch. But, skepticism right? Biden as the hero is still in play.

[honorentheos]

If he is even partially successful in getting the the Supreme Court reforms enacted he is now pushing, yeah I'm on board with his being a hero.

[Gadianton]

When the text leaks come to substantiate it I'll believe it, until then, it's a conspiracy theory. One of the hallmarks is making several fortuitous events planned with inevitable success. It would make Obama better at coups than Trump is at golf. It's a good thing Obama isn't a Republican because then the election would actually have been stolen. Hell, maybe it was?

Setting up Biden to fail in a debate where he could easily have done at least as good as he did in subsequent speaking addresses as one of several perfectly orchestrated moves all dependent on each other's absolute success just isn't believable until I see the texts that were exchanged confirming it. Biden is a hot head and over-confident. At the same time he was challenging Trump on the golf course.

And then Obama threatened "article 25" (or whatever) where Harris Becomes president, but then holds off endorsing Harris for a long time because he had someone else in mind for president, all the while Biden KNEW Obama wanted someone else and therefore, could have called his bluff -- there are some bugs to work out.

[canpakes]

He's not a member of this board to which I've posed questions. You are.

Okay. Please give me a few minutes to dig out my crystal ball and read his mind.

If a Person A believes that Person B may or did do something, then it follows that Person A has reached that conclusion based on some evidence or assumption. Jersey Girl’s question is about what that evidence or what those assumptions are that Person A harbors.

No crystal ball needed, nor anyone else’s mind.

[Morley]

Not believable.

No former president (well, sans Trump) would go the 25th Amendment route on his own party. Poor Seymour Hersh is trying to stay relevant by doing what he historically does: make crap up. To him, it doesn't matter if it's true or not; he got his name out there, yet again.

[canpakes]

You immediately doubt the Hersch story because it doesn't fit your Biden's leaving as patriotic narrative. It's simply too early to cast so much doubt on what Hersch reports. Biden was campaigning in Las Vegas right before this supposed patriotic moment. Sure, he could have had a sudden change of heart after seeing the flag or something. Or the donors cutting off funding, pressure from other insiders combined with Obama giving a reluctant Biden a forceful push in the other way could be what really happened.

Anyway, the hero narrative is seductive and safe. So, obviously believe what you want.

I don’t see it as impossible that Biden could have campaigned up until the moment that he changed his mind. There’s no mandated period of imposed inactivity required when someone is deciding between two different courses of action.

I also am not seeing why you pose the situation as only being the result of one of two inputs (heroic or coerced). Seems that Obama could have given his opinion without the fanciful scenario of him somehow controlling donors or the DNC, and Biden could have considered Obama’s opinion (if it was given) in deciding what he should do, adding that input to his own reasons.

You’ve loaded a whole lot of improbable-sounding conditions into the decision. It would help if you spoke more to why you believe that they should be seriously considered.

[Dr Exiled]

You immediately doubt the Hersch story because it doesn't fit your Biden's leaving as patriotic narrative. It's simply too early to cast so much doubt on what Hersch reports. Biden was campaigning in Las Vegas right before this supposed patriotic moment. Sure, he could have had a sudden change of heart after seeing the flag or something. Or the donors cutting off funding, pressure from other insiders combined with Obama giving a reluctant Biden a forceful push in the other way could be what really happened.

Anyway, the hero narrative is seductive and safe. So, obviously believe what you want.

I don’t see it as impossible that Biden could have campaigned up until the moment that he changed his mind. There’s no mandated period of imposed inactivity required when someone is deciding between two different courses of action.

I also am not seeing why you pose the situation as only being the result of one of two inputs (heroic or coerced). Seems that Obama could have given his opinion without the fanciful scenario of him somehow controlling donors or the DNC, and Biden could have considered Obama’s opinion (if it was given) in deciding what he should do, adding that input to his own reasons.

You’ve loaded a whole lot of improbable-sounding conditions into the decision. It would help if you spoke more to why you believe that they should be seriously considered.

All I've done is push back on Jersey's and Honor's knee-jerk denials. They want to preserve Biden as the patriotic hero of our times. Given that the partisan press is too eager to paint their candidate in a heroic light, I think skepticism is proper. Also, skepticism is proper with respect to Hersch. However, it's too early to dismiss Hersch's reporting at this point. More information, sources, are needed and in stories like this, it comes out well into the future when people let their guard down.