Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

[ceeboo]

Many of MG’s mistaken pronouncements about what Jews and Muslims believe hit a nerve with me. I’ve spent considerable time in the Near East. My wife is an Iranian Shi’ite. One of my daughters is Jewish, as are some of my grandchildren. My grandmother was a Mormon who was descended from Jews. Since the war with Gaza started, my wife and I are in daily contact with a friend who is living through the horror in Israel. This is all to give some background as to where I’m coming from.

I appreciate you sharing your relevant background, and I can't imagine what it would be like to be in daily contact with a friend who finds themself in the middle of a war. Extremely difficult stuff.

Messianic Jews, right or wrong, are not considered to be a part of the Jewish community. This is because of the thousands of years of persecution, accusations of blood libel, and horrific antisemitism that all has historical roots in Christianity. You’re right that the larger Jewish community is pretty diverse, but you’ll find near universal agreement on this.

Putting aside the inexcusable and horrific persecution of Jewish people at the hands of Christians (putting it aside because I do not dispute it) - How does this "Jewish community" determine who belongs to it and who doesn't? Is everyone in except those who follow Jesus? Other than ethnicity and religion, what else is in play to make this determination?

Jews, as a religious and ethnic community, have a right to define themselves for themselves. You can find parallels in all communities. Christians, as diverse as they are, feel free to marginalize those whom they see as not adhering to their faith and traditions.

For the most part, I would agree with you as it relates to a religious community. Where I am struggling is when we take two things (in this case, religion and ethnicity) and treat them as one in the same. They are not.

If you could help me understand, I would appreciate it (To be clear, I am being serious)

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Just like there are many Jews who are followers of Jesus today,

How many?

- Doc

Bump

[huckelberry]

pseudoPaul, I am sure that you are aware that there is a variety of views about this and not simply a fundamentalist scholar's division. There are criteria used to distinguish sayings most likely or assuredly from Jesus and those less certain and then those more likely from later sources. Different people have used these and come up with different conclusions. Thinking back to a Jesus Seminar they voted and came up with results averaging the variety of views.

Clearly there is editing and as a result some alterations in the saying known to the authors. One might easily see more editorial voice in style in John but that leaves room for the underlying substance to have been from Jesus.

In general I find doubtful the image that Jesus was a figure of few words whose later followers invented many stories parables and saying which they found inspiring.

Most John scholars will tell you that the author of John (who wasn't John the apostle) also authored the sayings of Jesus found in John. A few reasons why:

• They don't overlap with our earliest sources and don't sound like the Jesus of the synoptics

• They are long-winded philosophical discourses that don't fit Jesus's background as a rural apocalyptic preacher and couldn't have plausibly been preserved in memory/oral tradition due to their length and complexity

• They match the writing style of the narrator of John

• They contain rhetorical flourishes that work in Greek but not in Jesus' native Aramaic

In order for a saying of Jesus to have survived many decades of oral tradition, it would have had to have been short, pithy and memorable. That basically leaves Jesus' parables and aphorisms as the best candidates. Those kinds of sayings are mostly in the synoptics. And yes, critical scholars agree that most sayings attributed to Jesus don't plausibly go back to Jesus himself.

Kinds of sayings that don't plausibly go back to Jesus: long discourses and conversations with other people.

Other kinds of sayings that can't plausibly go back to Jesus: anything referring to his own death, divinity, atonement, etc. These are anachronistic coming from the lips of Jesus.

PseudoPaul, Your statement about John is both clear and on target. It is a good summary for why one would not find actual saying of Jesus in John. I think the author of John is constructing statements which he understands to reflect Jesus's teaching and explaining their meaning. Of course there would be influence of ideas of the Christian followers after Jesus death on the result. To try and disentangle Jesus teaching before his death from post death ideas of Christians the synoptic gospels would be where to look as you point out.

Considering the current topic in last pages here I remember a critical scholar deciding that the Lords prayer would not count as reliably Jesus because it was too regularly Jewish. I certainly see it as Jewish as with most of Jesus teachings. The desire to find the real historical Jesus invites a sifting with excludes things both too Jewish on the one hand or on the other hand not Jewish enough. There is a bit of danger of reducing Jesus to some rural running up and down the street proclaiming the end is nigh.

[MG 2.0]

You're being ridiculous.

This was your claim that I was responding to:



Then you said that Jesus was the only one to have done this.


Look at the Old Testament:

Isaiah 63:16

"You are our father, for Abraham did not know us, neither did Israel recognize us; You, O [YHWH], are our father; our redeemer of old is your name."

Do I need to also show you where, in The Old Testament, it says we should worship and pray to this same God?


Even in your own cannon, the Book of Mormon prophets who preceded Jesus taught the God is the Father and that we should worship him. This stuff didn't begin with the earthly ministry of Jesus.

That’s priceless Morley, the Book of Mormon also refutes the uniqueness assertion about Jesus that MG 2.0 keeps re-asserting.

One cannot help but wonder if he’s actually read the Book of Mormon, of if he believes it’s an accurate telling of real events. If he does, then he’s knowingly making assertions against The Book of Mormon. It’s delicious that he’s painted himself into a corner where to get out he either has to admit he’s wrong with his assertion about Jesus, or he’s admiting the Book of Mormon isn’t accurate.

And he's done that on a thread he started that’s titled “Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?”

In the Old World the prophets worshiped Jehovah and used liturgical language/prayer. They weren't praying to the Father. My understanding is that with polytheism being the standard that God the Father through Divine Investiture had his Son act as God to the ancient Israelites. When the Lehites came to the New World, God the Father revealed Himself as being separate from His Son to the prophets. Thus, they and the people they ministered to were taught concerning the Godhead. Divine Investiture was no longer operational. God the Father has operated throughout earth's history according to the populations of His children that he is/was dealing with and the circumstances under which they live(d) and the understanding they have/had about God and the world as they see it.

The Nephites were given more light and knowledge as they were 'planted' in the New World and were absent the influences that the Old Testament Israelites were subject to.

When Jesus came to 'his own' in the Old World He was teaching/talking to people that were coming off of the Mosaic Law to the new law in Christ. It was at that time that He then gave them instruction on how to pray to their Heavenly Father. At that time and at that place the complete 'order of prayer', so to speak, was introduced.

Two different populations, two approaches as to how to interact with the divine. Today's church with a fullness of the gospel and additional knowledge concerning the Godhead has been given the 'order of prayer' that Jesus taught his disciples when He came to earth in the meridian of time.

At least that's the way I understand it.

As it was/is I think that it is still self evident that in the Old World that when Jesus taught his disciples how to pray (New Testament) this was the first introduction to praying to their Father in Heaven in a personal way. Up until then, those that were followers of Jehovah were actually worshiping/praying to Jehovah (Christ). Liturgical prayer essentially.

He came. Things changed. For the Nephites the 'order of prayer' to God the Father was introduced earlier (before Christ in the Old World) because of the situational conditions that they were led to (New World) and were able to start with a clean slate with a fuller understanding of the Godhead without the surrounding influences that the Israelites had been subject to.

As it is today in the church we pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. How much 'Divine Investiture' is present in the 'order of prayer' as it is practiced today...I'm not sure. The jury may be out on that one. And it may not really matter at this point in time.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

It's interesting that in 3 Nephi when Jesus appears to those in the New World that there is a WHOLE LOT of emphasis in his teachings as it relates to the 'order of prayer' and praying to the Father. So something changed or was different in some sense in the New World after Jesus came in connection with prayer practice.

Regards,
MG

[ceeboo]

In the Old World the prophets worshiped Jehovah and used liturgical language/prayer. They weren't praying to the Father. My understanding is that with polytheism being the standard that God the Father through Divine Investiture had his Son act as God to the ancient Israelites. When the Lehites came to the New World, God the Father revealed Himself as being separate from His Son to the prophets. Thus, they and the people they ministered to were taught concerning the Godhead. Divine Investiture was no longer operational. God the Father has operated throughout earth's history according to the populations of His children that he is/was dealing with and the circumstances under which they live(d) and the understanding they have/had about God and the world as they see it.

The Nephites were given more light and knowledge as they were 'planted' in the New World and were absent the influences that the Old Testament Israelites were subject to.

When Jesus came to 'his own' in the Old World He was teaching/talking to people that were coming off of the Mosaic Law to the new law in Christ. It was at that time that He then gave them instruction on how to pray to their Heavenly Father. At that time and at that place the complete 'order of prayer', so to speak, was introduced.

Two different populations, two approaches as to how to interact with the divine. Today's church with a fullness of the gospel and additional knowledge concerning the Godhead has been given the 'order of prayer' that Jesus taught his disciples when He came to earth in the meridian of time.

At least that's the way I understand it.

As it was/is I think that it is still self evident that in the Old World that when Jesus taught his disciples how to pray (New Testament) this was the first introduction to praying to their Father in Heaven in a personal way. Up until then, those that were followers of Jehovah were actually worshiping/praying to Jehovah (Christ). Liturgical prayer essentially.

He came. Things changed. For the Nephites the 'order of prayer' to God the Father was introduced earlier (before Christ in the Old World) because of the situational conditions that they were led to (New World) and were able to start with a clean slate with a fuller understanding of the Godhead without the surrounding influences that the Israelites had been subject to.

As it is today in the church we pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. How much 'Divine Investiture' is present in the 'order of prayer' as it is practiced today...I'm not sure. The jury may be out on that one. And it may not really matter at this point in time.

Regards,
MG

Hey MG

As someone who doesn't know very much about what you're talking about in this post (That is to say, I know very little about what is written in the Book of Mormon and the other LDS scripture (do you consider/call the other LDS books scripture?)) - I do appreciate you being a LDS board member. I wish we had more believing LDS people here. Truth be told, I think it would be awesome if we had perspectives of believing Muslims and believing Jews as well.

Anyway, thanks for being here and sharing your views/beliefs.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Just like there are many Jews who are followers of Jesus today,

How many?

- Doc

I guess Ceeboo is taking out his ass again. (:

- Doc

[ceeboo]

How many?

- Doc

I guess Ceeboo is taking out his ass again. (:

- Doc

I guess fools are completely unaware when they continue to display their foolishness. If I were such a fool, I might at least consider Google.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I guess Ceeboo is taking out his ass again. (:

- Doc

I guess fools are completely unaware when they continue to display their foolishness. If I were such a fool, I might at least consider google.

I did, but I wanted to see what you thought was “…many Jews who are followers of Jesus today.” So, please back up your assertion since I politely asked for it.

- Doc

[ceeboo]

I guess fools are completely unaware when they continue to display their foolishness. If I were such a fool, I might at least consider google.

I did, but I wanted to see what you thought was “…many Jews who are followers of Jesus today.” So, please back up your assertion since I politely asked for it.

- Doc

Back up "my assertion" that there are many Jews today who follow Jesus?

Jews who follow Jesus (a.k.a. Christians) come under two main umbrellas.

1. Messianic Jews - Around 350,000 - belonging to their own Messianic Jewish congregations due to a desire to hang on to their cherished Jewish heritage and traditions

2. Christians who just happen to be ethnic Jews and land in any number of other congregations - I have no idea how many.

What point and/or challenge are you trying to make?