LGBT inclusion can tear congregations apart

[Chap]

The mosaic laws (old covenant) were the laws given to a specific group of people (Israelites) by God, through Moses, at a specific time in history.

Followers of Christ are under the new and everlasting covenant. The old law has passed away and is now obsolete.

But people who call themselves Christians frequently appeal to Old Testament texts about sexual behaviour, without any hint that those laws have passed away. How come? Did they not get the email?

Did Jesus leave us a list of those bits of the 'old law' that have not 'passed away'? No? Then how can we know which bits are (according to Jesus) still in force and which bits are obsolete?

[Chap]

...I believe God has the right to do whatever he wants to do. God is not beholden to us at all - He doesn't owe us anything. It's his creation and he has the right, as Creator, to do whatever he wants...

But you are willing to let humans, writing a book, tell you what they think god said. Why do you trust these humans? Because they told you they were speaking for god? Kind of like how Joseph Smith wrote a book that he said was from god, and in the book he wrote, his name was given as a future prophet. Therefore, Mormons argue god meant Smith to be a prophet.

Circular reasoning, right? Like your reasoning about the Bible being the word of god?

Exactly. All we have is other human beings telling us what this thing that the (in English) call 'god' says, and what he wants people to do. Why should we believe them (leaving aside the fact that quite a few of them feel entitled to kill you if you reject their claims)? They could be just making it all up.

And isn't it strange? Nearly everybody who has a religion learned it from their parents. And to them, that religion seems quite normal and reasonable (Mom and Pop don't lie!), while the religion that other people's parents taught them seems everything from ridiculous to downright wicked.

[ceeboo]

So if you create something, you can do whatever you want with it? Parents who abuse their creations are all good from ceeboo’s perspective, apparently.

That's nice of you to post such a thing about me.

If you really wanted to know what I thought about such a serious and heartbreaking subject (like child abuse), you could have asked me. But, as I have learned due to our last few exchanges, you're not really interested in my thoughts/perspectives/understanding. You have other motives.

No worries.

[ceeboo]

Can we agree at a starting point? The name Jesus is not found in the Old Testament. How could anyone possibly think that the name Jesus, which was not given until he was born and given the name, be found prior to said event.

WT<something>?? Perhaps this is meant sarcastically.

Of course, if you look in the King James Translation of the Old Testament into English, you con't find the name 'Jesus'.

But I thought every Christian of a moderate level of education would know that the name 'Jesus' for the guy from Nazareth comes from the Greek Iēsous (Ἰησοῦς) used in the New Testament, which itself originates in the Hebrew name Yeshua, a shorter form of Yehoshua (Joshua, see the Old Testament in the KJV)) which basically means 'Deliverer'. Hence Matthew 1:21 "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins".

Thanks for the middle school lesson, but I got this.

I was just beginning to have a sincere discussion with a board friend (RI), and one of the very first steps I wanted to take with him (out of courtesy and respect for him) was to see where he was on a few things before we started getting deeper into several points that I wanted to share with him.

[ceeboo]

The mosaic laws (old covenant) were the laws given to a specific group of people (Israelites) by God, through Moses, at a specific time in history.

Followers of Christ are under the new and everlasting covenant. The old law has passed away and is now obsolete.

But people who call themselves Christians frequently appeal to Old Testament texts about sexual behaviour, without any hint that those laws have passed away. How come? Did they not get the email?

There are three types of law in the Old Testament.

Moral Law - Binding on all people for all times.

Civil Law - For the Nation of Israel, as a Nation - These laws expired with the Nation of Israel.

Ceremonial Laws - Laws that identified Israel as God's unique people (dietary - Cutting edge of beard, etc - All to signify that they are not like the people around them)

Christ has come - Christians are under the new covenant - under Grace - Christ has fulfilled the whole law and he has actually enabled Christians to keep the Moral law. The moral law hasn't gone anywhere, so it is still wrong for you to murder me or me to murder you. It is still wrong to commit adultery. It is still wrong to steal, etc, etc (All of these things remain.)

I would suggest that understanding the entire Bible, understanding what is taught in the New Testament, and understanding what Jesus taught, is what forces me to not just pick and choose what I like and what I don't like.

So, you want to know why I pick and choose certain parts of the Bible. I can explain it to you, and it leans heavily on an authority that is much higher than me.

But this is what I want to know: Why is it that you get to pick and choose from the Bible, and you don't know why, and you don't know how, and whatever you choose, is simply what you happen to want at any given moment?

[I Have Questions]

Can we agree at a starting point? The name Jesus is not found in the Old Testament. How could anyone possibly think that the name Jesus, which was not given until he was born and given the name, be found prior to said event.

WT<something>?? Perhaps this is meant sarcastically.

Of course, if you look in the King James Translation of the Old Testament into English, you con't find the name 'Jesus'.

But I thought every Christian of a moderate level of education would know that the name 'Jesus' for the guy from Nazareth comes from the Greek Iēsous (Ἰησοῦς) used in the New Testament, which itself originates in the Hebrew name Yeshua, a shorter form of Yehoshua (Joshua, see the Old Testament in the KJV)) which basically means 'Deliverer'. Hence Matthew 1:21 "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins".

Chap, you’ve attributed a quote to me that I did not say.

[Chap]

So if you create something, you can do whatever you want with it? Parents who abuse their creations are all good from ceeboo’s perspective, apparently.

That's nice of you to post such a thing about me.

If you really wanted to know what I thought about such a serious and heartbreaking subject (like child abuse), you could have asked me. But, as I have learned due to our last few exchanges, you're not really interested in my thoughts/perspectives/understanding. You have other motives.
[...].

If I have understood him rightly, Ceeboo says that his deity (who he believes created everything, including us) has the right to do what he likes with all of it, including us, because he created it. That is, although he has created sentient beings with the capacity to suffer horribly and to feel emotions of terror at the prospect of suffering for themselves and those they love - well, whatever this thing he believes in chooses to do, those beings just have to suck it up, because he made them and he can do anything he damn well likes.

IHQ draws a parallel with the much less horrifying case of a parent who mistreats their children - over whom they have infinitely less power than this thing Ceeboo believes in has over the beings he created. In effect, the argument behind this reference runs as follows:

1. Ceeboo presumably does not approve in any way of the parent who mistreats their children. The parent did not create the children as Ceeboo's thing did, and has much less capacity to inflict suffering on them. Yet like the rest of us, Ceeboo would certainly allow himself to express disapproval and say that they were doing wrong.

2. How then can Ceeboo so lightly dismiss the possibility that we as humans should say that if there is a thing that created us, and has set things up so that many of us suffer horribly, we might reasonably say that the thing he believes in is simply not very nice?

[Chap]

WT<something>?? Perhaps this is meant sarcastically.

Of course, if you look in the King James Translation of the Old Testament into English, you con't find the name 'Jesus'.

But I thought every Christian of a moderate level of education would know that the name 'Jesus' for the guy from Nazareth comes from the Greek Iēsous (Ἰησοῦς) used in the New Testament, which itself originates in the Hebrew name Yeshua, a shorter form of Yehoshua (Joshua, see the Old Testament in the KJV)) which basically means 'Deliverer'. Hence Matthew 1:21 "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins".

Chap, you’ve attributed a quote to me that I did not say.

Sorry - that was Ceeboo of course. I messed up the quotes when abbreviating his post.

[ceeboo]

But you are willing to let humans, writing a book, tell you what they think god said. Why do you trust these humans? Because they told you they were speaking for god? Kind of like how Joseph Smith wrote a book that he said was from god, and in the book he wrote, his name was given as a future prophet. Therefore, Mormons argue god meant Smith to be a prophet.

Brilliant post, Marcus.

I had never considered how Joseph Smith/Mormonism are the same thing as Biblical writers/Christianity.

Given the enormous crushing weight that you just introduced me to, I am struggling to find a path that would allow me to remain a Bible believing Christian. I need to do some serious thinking.

Thanks again for sharing your wisdom with me.

[Chap]

There are three types of law in the Old Testament.

Moral Law - Binding on all people for all times.

Civil Law - For the Nation of Israel, as a Nation - These laws expired with the Nation of Israel.

Ceremonial Laws - Laws that identified Israel as God's unique people (dietary - Cutting edge of beard, etc - All to signify that they are not like the people around them)

Christ has come - Christians are under the new covenant - under Grace - Christ has fulfilled the whole law and he has actually enabled Christians to keep the Moral law. The moral law hasn't gone anywhere, so it is still wrong for you to murder me or me to murder you. It is still wrong to commit adultery. It is still wrong to steal, etc, etc (All of these things remain.)

Sorry, that simply does not get you out of the hole.

The Old Testament texts do not come with little author's notes in the margin saying 'Moral Law', 'Civil Law', or 'Ceremonial Law. Yahweh says nothing of the kind, nor did the people who claimed to be recording his words.

Those are simply categories introduced by later commentators, particularly Christian commentators. to deal with the awkward fact that some aspects of Yahweh's commands are, shall we say, not very nice or just plain weird, but some, such as the prohibition of murder, theft and lying are things that we'd rather like to keep.

Can you find Jesus listing such categories as those? I don't think you can.