It's too bad then that according to Joseph Smith, there is "no such thing as immaterial matter" and as a Mormon, you are a "strict materialist". Your spirit and the spirit world and everything in it is material. It may be "more refined" as Joseph Smith said, but it is still material. How adding a "spirit function (that is material)" to brain function is anymore mystical than brain function alone would be interesting for you to explain (not).
It's like in one of those Saturday morning cartoons where there's a literal door depicted in outer space, it opens up, and it goes to a "different realm" or "dimension" or some other place that is exactly like our realm but with a tiny modification or two to make it feel different to the mind of the average six-year-old.
It's really fascinating, MG, that you know so little about the religion you profess to believe. Where did you ever get the idea that you weren't a materialist? Was it from Dan? If so, did he ever explain how that works? (no, he just proclaims it)
Gadianton, As best as I can see it Mormons and Joseph Smith kept everything that people generally call spirit and just renamed it as material more refined. About all that means is that spirit is real as apposed to imaginary. It still functions outside of the limits of the physics of the unrefined material world.
I am inclined to see MG understanding of Mormonism as pretty normal. I do not think Mormon understanding of refined matter would be stuff limited in qualities or potential of regular matter. It is thought of as superior is it not?
Yeah, I honestly didn’t think my initial post would even cause a ruckus. It was only when it was not looked at in the whole when things apparently went a bit off the rails.
Of course there would be a qualitative difference of some kind between matter that is not discerned by the natural mind but which literally ‘touches’ our spirit in a very real sense. I do think that there is a difference between emotionally based ‘elevation’ experiences and those experiences in which the divine touches our souls.
But to me it’s not really worth the effort to try and differentiate the two. I know strict materialistic thought would wrap everything into one (as my A.I. quote made clear).
Jersey Girl takes us from the wonder of living in this world and universe to the wonder of sharing life with others and the growth of a child. I think that connection is the heart of the matter. If being spiritually alive is letting wonder turn into love of others then spiritual experiences are moments that remind us alert and teach us these basic facts of being human.
The photo is lovely even though I puzzle a bit over the abandoned mine works. Just as an aesthetic thing they somehow include well.
Thanks Jersey Girl.
I think that's just pretty standard roadside fare in the state she resides in. I agree, what a lovely picture!
[MG] once tried and failed epically in a massive thread started by the illustrious DrW.
I have no idea what you’re referring to here. But knowing that even within this thread you yourself have been massively wrong in listening to and understanding what I’ve said it wouldn’t surprise me if you are, again, making stuff up.
Huck wrote:Gadianton, As best as I can see it Mormons and Joseph Smith kept everything that people generally call spirit and just renamed it as material more refined. About all that means is that spirit is real as apposed to imaginary. It still functions outside of the limits of the physics of the unrefined material world.
I am inclined to see MG understanding of Mormonism as pretty normal. I do not think Mormon understanding of refined matter would be stuff limited in qualities or potential of regular matter. It is thought of as superior is it not?
Are you sure you're not reading something into what MG is saying? If MG understood the point you're making, then he wouldn't have castigated "materialism" as limited to the brain. Mormonism is bound to materialism in every way, there is no "sense" that is different. The early brethren joyously crap-canned Christianity for this very reason. Making fun of an immaterial God. Relishing the insights that Mormonism and science are basically the same thing. If MG wants to differentiate himself from atheism, then fine, but he has no grounds for claiming that he believes in dualism or that there's something beyond matter.
Social distancing has likely already begun to flatten the curve...Continue to research good antivirals and vaccine candidates. Make everyone wear masks. -- J.D. Vance
A.I. wrote:A strict materialist does not believe in the divine or any supernatural entities. Materialism is a philosophical position that holds that everything that exists is ultimately physical or material in nature, and that there is no non-physical or spiritual realm.
That's incorrect. The word "supernatural" is ill-defined and perfectly compatible with a belief in materialism. Joseph Smith said there is no such thing as immaterial matter, and therefore everything is physical in nature, including God, and there is no non-physical realm. There is a spirit realm, it's just physical because spirits are physical, they are just more fine, as Joseph Smith taught. Joseph Smith, Orson Pratt, and all the early brethren made fun of the idea of non-physical realms and non-physical things. This is the nonsense of creedal Christianity.
Social distancing has likely already begun to flatten the curve...Continue to research good antivirals and vaccine candidates. Make everyone wear masks. -- J.D. Vance
It's sitting on the beach after the crowds go home. Where the only sounds you hear are the sounds of the waves and gulls looking for left overs and the only smell is the smell of salt. It's when you immerse your body in the ocean and baptize yourself in it's waters. It's when you walk along the shoreline and the excitement you feel when the ocean delivers it's treasures right to your feet, and you stuff your pockets full of them to take home so you never forget the fullness of the experience.
I grew up in California and spent a lot of time at the beach and along the coast. Some of my happiest memories are there. You encapsulated some of the rhythm and rhyme that I would express if I had a more poetic bent.
Ah, the ocean. It’s the one thing, besides McDonalds, that never changes.
Talk about feelings of elevation and time standing still. This is the place.
Not McDonalds. The ocean.
Some people say that communing with nature is the same as communing with God.
A.I. wrote:A strict materialist does not believe in the divine or any supernatural entities. Materialism is a philosophical position that holds that everything that exists is ultimately physical or material in nature, and that there is no non-physical or spiritual realm.
That's incorrect. The word "supernatural" is ill-defined and perfectly compatible with a belief in materialism. Joseph Smith said there is no such thing as immaterial matter, and therefore everything is physical in nature, including God, and there is no non-physical realm. There is a spirit realm, it's just physical because spirits are physical, they are just more fine, as Joseph Smith taught. Joseph Smith, Orson Pratt, and all the early brethren made fun of the idea of non-physical realms and non-physical things. This is the nonsense of creedal Christianity.
It really depends on how you define "supernatural" and "materialism." If you're saying that "supernatural" events are simply phenomena we don’t yet understand but can, in theory, be explained by natural laws, then yes, this view can be compatible with materialism. Materialism posits that everything is made of matter and is subject to physical laws. Under this interpretation, "supernatural" might just mean "not yet explained by science." But if "supernatural" implies entities or forces beyond the physical world, that clashes with materialism, which denies the existence of anything beyond the physical realm. It's really a question of definitions.
Copilot
Apparently you’re right. Definitions. I suppose you can play around with these words in different ways to reach a desired end.
If MG wants to differentiate himself from atheism, then fine, but he has no grounds for claiming that he believes in dualism or that there's something beyond matter.
I do claim to believe in dualism. And I don’t think there is something beyond matter. There are pieces of matter so small that have been hypothesized and/or found that you have to wonder just how small things can get. No, I don’t believe in immaterial matter.
I believe Spirit is matter. It’s not “beyond matter”.
The question in this thread is what is a spiritual experience. I think that question can be answered in more than one way.
No MG, you can try to be careful with words in order to reach a better understanding of things, not just to support a pre-defined conclusion the way apologetics does. I'm not interested in a pre-defined conclusion. Was Joseph Smith a materialist or not? If he wasn't, then I have no interest in believing that he was. I'm not trying to reach the conclusion that Joseph Smith was a materialist. I'm trying to reach the conclusion that reflects the reality of what Joseph Smith was.
I'm also trying to help you learn about what the church you fight for so valiantly believes. Wouldn't you want to understand your doctrine at some point before the end?
Social distancing has likely already begun to flatten the curve...Continue to research good antivirals and vaccine candidates. Make everyone wear masks. -- J.D. Vance
