What is a spiritual experience?

[MG 2.0]

Yes they do. But the beauty is that nowadays we are able to work through some of those barriers with success and help these people live a productive and yes, happy life as they find ways to navigate limitations.

That’s why I like the comparison of autism spectrum with spiritual autism spectrum. In the same vein one who is on the spiritual autism spectrum can find ways to navigate their inability to interact with the spirit in a ‘cookie cutter’ fashion of ‘warm fuzzies’.

I’ve mentioned modalities. Just as we look for various ways and means…modalities…that we can use to interact and communicate with those on the autism spectrum I believe that God does the same thing as he works with and communicates with his children. It’s not a one size fits all kind of thing.

I’ve talked about that earlier.

I’m saddened that the conversation became tainted by attributions/accusations of inappropriate treatment and/or reference to those on the autism spectrum. Truth is, some folks have a difficult time dealing with reality and talking about things as they are without falling into the trap of looking at things through the ‘objectification lens’ which disallows having a productive conversation.

At least in this instance anyways.

Regards,
MG

It's almost like you didn't read what I wrote. A quarter pounder infused with ecoli onions is what I got out of that. You didn't address how disparaging this is for the comparison. And then you supplement your horrific comparison with cookie cutter examples of accepting people simultaneously ignoring the church’s horrific descriptions of disabled people in the not to distant past.

Rivendale, we are obviously not on the same page here. That’s OK. Let’s go ahead and leave it on the table.

Regards,
MG

[Rivendale]

It's almost like you didn't read what I wrote. A quarter pounder infused with ecoli onions is what I got out of that. You didn't address how disparaging this is for the comparison. And then you supplement your horrific comparison with cookie cutter examples of accepting people simultaneously ignoring the church’s horrific descriptions of disabled people in the not to distant past.

Rivendale, we are obviously not on the same page here. That’s OK. Let’s go ahead and leave it on the table.

Regards,
MG

We aren't even in the same book.

[Gadianton]

I agree that it is something that cannot be measured. But it is something that I think can be recognized. And it isn’t even something in which ‘greater than/less than’ judgements can or even should be made.

...isn't that what a "scale" does? Isn't that what you've been asking people to do -- rate themselves on the autism scale?

I think it is reasonable to think that not everyone is on equal footing and/or understanding when it comes to spiritual things.

okay we're back to a scale then.

And the point I’m making is that this is not always of one’s own doing. It may be innate to who we as a ‘soul’ are.

What is up to us is how we respond to opportunities to connect with the spirit. That will look different and be described differently by different people.

Well, you aren't that far out from Christian apologists who have speculated about some kind of a sixth sense that involves belief in God. There have even been speculations that unbelievers don't have this sense. You could draw on LDS lore to substantiate your point, I'm thinking about BK(KK)P's "what does salt taste like?" theory, which is the same thing. The idea that belief is epistemically basic. Unlike salt, however, which can be correlated to neurological structures that experience the salt, there is nothing but the assumption of a soul and however that soul might function that results in 'belief', we just have to go by the say-so of the supposed "salt tasters" to let us know that it is real.

[IWMP]

I struggled in church because often people would talk about feeling the spirit and I struggled to feel much of anything but later realised I had dissociation so I didn't exactly have a chance to feel the spirit. But strangely, nostalgia carries a little essence of spiritual feelings for me. So looking back on my time in church, although I know I didn't feel the spirit, I do get a sense that my life was more spiritual then than it is now and I expect that I will look back in another decade and feel this time is more spiritual.

This is what I would refer to as spiritual autism. In these cases, which I think are more common than one might think, I think God has other ways to nurture and speak to us. It sounds like you’ve seen/experienced this in your own life. It’s up to us to find that modality.

Some don’t bother to do so.

Just as there is an autism spectrum there is a spirituality spectrum.

In my opinion anyway.

Regards,
MG

I get the jist of what you are saying. I think my problem may have been what I was expecting to feel. Church gives quite a clear and distinct vibe about what the spirit should feel like. I don't think this defined my spirituality though. I so very strongly wanted to feel it and to believe and I lived it and prayed and prayed about it. I think I was probably very spiritual but it was clouded by the fact that I couldn't feel the spirit in the way that I thought others did. But hindsight shows a different picture. Looking back I think actually I might have been more spiritual than my peers in the church. I think also, I am a person that doesn't trust well. And also I have too many questions.

I often think about going back to church. I don't agree with things but I do think for someone not conflicted and not battling in their soul, seeking the "truth", it can be positive. I know that's a touchy thing to say so I'll clarify now... Church saved me. Whether I trusted or not, it had a more positive role in my life than negative. But perhaps that was in comparison to my life outside of church. I think having that network of people and some rigid rules helped me. I work better with rigid rules in place. I need to set myself detailed plans and rules to function productively. But I doubt I would go back and stop drinking tea. I sort of swing back and forth with it. I think it would do my kids some good but at the same time I don't want them to get pulled into that hyperfocus on whether or not the church is true.

[MG 2.0]

I agree that it is something that cannot be measured. But it is something that I think can be recognized. And it isn’t even something in which ‘greater than/less than’ judgements can or even should be made.

...isn't that what a "scale" does? Isn't that what you've been asking people to do -- rate themselves on the autism scale?

Just as I recognized in myself a tendency towards spiritual autism years ago I’ve also been able to ‘feel the spirit’ in ways…using what might be considered non traditional means and modalities…that conform and fit my ‘soul’. My point is that this is going to vary from one individual to another across the planet. We’re not all the same. We may all be able to ‘touch’ the transcendent but we’re not all going to do so identically. Some may more closely ‘conform’ to the ‘norm’ of a warm fuzzy and yet powerful manifestation of the Spirit in their very soul. I’ve had a touch of that here and there in my life but not frequently. More often than not my connection with the transcendent has come through a variety of modalities. All of them witnessing of God’s goodness and his being in and through all things. While at the same time being self existent. This ‘makes sense’ to my mind and heart.

But I can’t rate others on ‘a scale’. We can only monitor our own ‘spirit’ and our connection with the divine. We shouldn’t be judging others.

I think it is reasonable to think that not everyone is on equal footing and/or understanding when it comes to spiritual things.

okay we're back to a scale then.

Recognizing that there is a spectrum.

And the point I’m making is that this is not always of one’s own doing. It may be innate to who we as a ‘soul’ are.

What is up to us is how we respond to opportunities to connect with the spirit. That will look different and be described differently by different people.

Well, you aren't that far out from Christian apologists who have speculated about some kind of a sixth sense that involves belief in God. There have even been speculations that unbelievers don't have this sense. You could draw on LDS lore to substantiate your point, I'm thinking about BK(KK)P's "what does salt taste like?" theory, which is the same thing. The idea that belief is epistemically basic. Unlike salt, however, which can be correlated to neurological structures that experience the salt, there is nothing but the assumption of a soul and however that soul might function that results in 'belief', we just have to go by the say-so of the supposed "salt tasters" to let us know that it is real.

Unless we experience the taste of salt ourselves. The difference being, as I’ve attempted to say, that we each experience taste differently when it comes to the things of the spirit. There may be commonalities and there may be differences.

This was the reason I brought Kripal into the discussion so that we can see that there are various flavors of religious experience and that God may speak to us individually according the makings of our own mind and heart.

Kripal recognizes that with the millions and millions of people who in one way or another truly believe that they have experienced the ‘other worldly’ we can’t just cast it aside when it is real and meaningful to the individual.

In Mormonism we have an extra ‘flavor’ in the ‘spirit mix’ that we refer to as the Holy Ghost. It is that spirit that testifies of the truths of the restoration. The modality that this may be operative through/in might vary a bit from time to time from person to person.

Again, we can only recognize that we all live on a spiritual spectrum of understanding. Some of us may feel as though we are on a spiritual autism spectrum in that we may not respond to spiritual things in what might be considered the traditional normative fashion although we might have glimpses here and there.

What is a bit frustrating is to watch some folks that become somewhat ‘numb’ to spiritual inclinations because of distortions that come into their lives. Drugs, sex, and rock and roll…to name a few. We have to choose to touch the transcendent. I don’t think that normally it ‘just happens’. It takes effort on our part.

That’s what I think anyway. Your mileage may vary of course.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Church gives quite a clear and distinct vibe about what the spirit should feel like. I don't think this defined my spirituality though.

I think that there is the ‘common experience’ that usually takes center stage. But you’re you. You’re different. God will speak to you as YOU connect with the transcendent. That which is above and beyond that which under normal circumstances can only be touched and felt through our five senses.

If you’re anything like me you might feel at times as though you are on a spiritual autism spectrum.

That’s OK. Again…THAT’S OK. We’re all built differently. Differently doesn’t mean better. Just different.

The thing is, I think we can also connect with God through other modalities such as nature, thought and introspection, other people, children, reading good literature, good music, scripture, prayer, etc.

The list can be rather long. But it’s not always ‘cookie cutter”.

Best wishes in your own spiritual journey and connection with the divine. Whatever leads towards Christ, in my opinion, leads towards the greater light, including the Father of all lights.

The CofJCofLDS acts as the conduit to do that, however imperfectly we might travel the path.

Take care. Best wishes in being a mom.

Regards,
MG

[Gadianton]

Unless we experience the taste of salt ourselves. The difference being, as I’ve attempted to say, that we each experience taste differently when it comes to the things of the spirit. There may be commonalities and there may be differences.

This was the reason I brought Kripal into the discussion so that we can see that there are various flavors of religious experience and that God may speak to us individually according the makings of our own mind and heart.

Kripal recognizes that with the millions and millions of people who in one way or another truly believe that they have experienced the ‘other worldly’ we can’t just cast it aside when it is real and meaningful to the individual.

Does Kripal accept the flavor of the spirit that Mayan priests experienced when they performed human sacrifices?

In Mormonism we have an extra ‘flavor’ in the ‘spirit mix’ that we refer to as the Holy Ghost. It is that spirit that testifies of the truths of the restoration. The modality that this may be operative through/in might vary a bit from time to time from person to person.

Again, we can only recognize that we all live on a spiritual spectrum of understanding. Some of us may feel as though we are on a spiritual autism spectrum in that we may not respond to spiritual things in what might be considered the traditional normative fashion although we might have glimpses here and there.

You can believe that, but you have your assertion only. You can make up whatever you want to cover the bases you need. I can do the same with my Santa Claus theory. That person over there who was good but doesn't believe in Santa and even saw his parents wrap the presents? Santa gave the presents to his parents, and so he experienced Santa differently than those whose chimneys Santa came down to give gifts directly.

What is a bit frustrating is to watch some folks that become somewhat ‘numb’ to spiritual inclinations because of distortions that come into their lives. Drugs, sex, and rock and roll…to name a few. We have to choose to touch the transcendent. I don’t think that normally it ‘just happens’. It takes effort on our part.

So you're saying that folks who claim to touch the transcendent -- and this is a whole lot of people -- through sex drugs and rock'n roll explicitly can't possibly be feeling a modality of religious and spiritual experience?

https://www.the-independent.com/arts-en ... 19461.html

Speaking about his spiritual beliefs, McCartney said in an interview with the Sunday Times that he believed there was “something higher”, and linked it to his experience of taking Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) with a group of people including art dealer and gallery owner Robert Fraser.

“We were immediately nailed to the sofa,” he recalled. “And I saw God, this amazing towering thing, and I was humbled. And what I’m saying is, that moment didn’t turn my life around, but it was a clue.

“It was huge,” he continued. “A massive wall that I couldn’t see the top of, and I was at the bottom. And anybody else would say it’s just the drug, the hallucination, but both Robert and I were like, ‘Did you see that?’ We felt we had seen a higher thing.”

[MG 2.0]

Unless we experience the taste of salt ourselves. The difference being, as I’ve attempted to say, that we each experience taste differently when it comes to the things of the spirit. There may be commonalities and there may be differences.

This was the reason I brought Kripal into the discussion so that we can see that there are various flavors of religious experience and that God may speak to us individually according the makings of our own mind and heart.

Kripal recognizes that with the millions and millions of people who in one way or another truly believe that they have experienced the ‘other worldly’ we can’t just cast it aside when it is real and meaningful to the individual.

Does Kripal accept the flavor of the spirit that Mayan priests experienced when they performed human sacrifices?

In Mormonism we have an extra ‘flavor’ in the ‘spirit mix’ that we refer to as the Holy Ghost. It is that spirit that testifies of the truths of the restoration. The modality that this may be operative through/in might vary a bit from time to time from person to person.

Again, we can only recognize that we all live on a spiritual spectrum of understanding. Some of us may feel as though we are on a spiritual autism spectrum in that we may not respond to spiritual things in what might be considered the traditional normative fashion although we might have glimpses here and there.

You can believe that, but you have your assertion only. You can make up whatever you want to cover the bases you need. I can do the same with my Santa Claus theory. That person over there who was good but doesn't believe in Santa and even saw his parents wrap the presents? Santa gave the presents to his parents, and so he experienced Santa differently than those whose chimneys Santa came down to give gifts directly.

What is a bit frustrating is to watch some folks that become somewhat ‘numb’ to spiritual inclinations because of distortions that come into their lives. Drugs, sex, and rock and roll…to name a few. We have to choose to touch the transcendent. I don’t think that normally it ‘just happens’. It takes effort on our part.

So you're saying that folks who claim to touch the transcendent -- and this is a whole lot of people -- through sex drugs and rock'n roll explicitly can't possibly be feeling a modality of religious and spiritual experience?

https://www.the-independent.com/arts-en ... 19461.html

Speaking about his spiritual beliefs, McCartney said in an interview with the Sunday Times that he believed there was “something higher”, and linked it to his experience of taking Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) with a group of people including art dealer and gallery owner Robert Fraser.

“We were immediately nailed to the sofa,” he recalled. “And I saw God, this amazing towering thing, and I was humbled. And what I’m saying is, that moment didn’t turn my life around, but it was a clue.

“It was huge,” he continued. “A massive wall that I couldn’t see the top of, and I was at the bottom. And anybody else would say it’s just the drug, the hallucination, but both Robert and I were like, ‘Did you see that?’ We felt we had seen a higher thing.”

McCartney is the one to be the judge of what he experienced. If it led him to goodness and greater light (desires to seek the good for those around him and humanity) then he may feel as though that experience led him to a better place.

From what I know, he has done a lot of good in the world. Overall, the spiritual inclinations have led to a life of service through music.

Again, I can’t be the final judge. My comment was meant to say that if our spirit is ‘numbed’ towards seeking the good of ourselves and others it seems as though that ‘spirit’ is a false spirit in the sense that it doesn’t lead towards the ‘greater good’. If the drugs, sex, and rock and roll lead to a dark place I would tend to think that the spirit that leads towards goodness and light is diminished.

Your example of Mayan priests is one of many examples in which the light was lost as the value of human life became twisted through religious ritual.

There can be ‘false spirits’ in the sense that misery and mayhem are the result of spiritual inclinations. The D&C alludes to that in a few places within the context of early church growth and development of a people who were called to serve God in truth and righteousness. A higher and holier way.

OK, now it’s time to throw in polygamy.

There are false spiritual inclinations that lead towards hurt and pain (false spirits) and there are spiritual inclinations that lead towards greater goodness and light.

These inclinations and the way they manifest themselves will vary from person to person and culture to culture.

Regards,
MG

[Moksha]

Are you defining the Jewish ritual of shuckling as "spiritual autism"? Could you explain what you mean by that, please?

No, I am not making that definition, however, people with autism frequently make a rocking motion.

[Marcus]

Are you defining the Jewish ritual of shuckling as "spiritual autism"? Could you explain what you mean by that, please?

No, I am not making that definition, however, people with autism frequently make a rocking motion.

I suppose i was being too polite. You did propose Jewish shuckling as an example of the bogus, nonexistent "spiritual autism":

Spiritual autism…really?

Rocking back and forth at the Wailing Wall?

I assume you are retracting that horrible example now. If so, thank you for that.