Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

[Marcus]

As a nonmember I would think that you would have other things to do with your life other than hang out on a board dissing the CofJCofLDS.

What’s up with that? The clock is ticking. Time to get along with your life?

Have a look at how many posts you make here, then look at how many I’ve made. Then tell me which of us his neglecting his life in favour of posting here.

Then tell me why the mistakes people made when producing the KJV Bible in the 17th century appear verbatim in The Book of Mormon which is claimed to have been written 1,348 years earlier…

I would like to hear an LDS believer reconcile Skousen and Carmack's Early Modern English hypothesis with the plagiarized passages from the 17th century KJV Bible. Was someone on the ghost committee taking a page out of Peterson's blogging style and making a few shortcuts??

[Markk]

MG wrote...We can hypothesize about why Emma had issues with polygamy and may have found herself in a position of being less than truthful.

But again, what about her testimony of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, acting as scribe, describing the process, verifying the plates were real, etc. What do you think she had to gain by lying?

Just because she lied about her husband being involved in plural marriage does not mean she lied about the mechanics of the translation of the Book of Mormon. It is clear from court documents and 1st hand accounts that Joseph Smith was a polygamous, and that she knew it mid-stream Nauvoo.

We also know from 1st hand accounts and reliable sources that all compliment Emma's final testimony. If we are to accept that she was lying, it is an orchestrated lie, involving my wife, Elizabeth Whitmer, Martin and others. And it would mean the GA over the years bough into the conspiracy.

I hope I am capturing you argument, I haven't had the time to read your posts.

[Markk]

MG wrote...My guess is that you would look at your Catholic brothers and sisters as being mislead somewhat in regards to teachings concerning grace and works. If so, do you see them as being ‘damned’ in a similar way that you might see LDS members being damned for believing in a different Jesus (words I’ve heard from Evangelical folks). How do you know that you’re right and your Catholic brother down the street is wrong?

First off I never said anyone is damned. I said I reject LDS core theology and doctrine. I am not yours, or anyone's HS. My closet is full of sin without worrying about anyone else's salvation or damnation.

As far as Catholic theology goes...sure I disagree with some of their practices and theology, but I believe they have the same concept of theology proper or the nature of God. Heck, I disagree with some protestant views, and go back and forth on some, it is not like I have it all figured out, far from it.

And again I never said any LDS member is damned....those are your words, not mine. What I wrote is that LDS theology is not Christian theology in regards to the nature of God....each member will have to deal with that. We can objectively compare the two/

I never said my Catholic brother down the road is wrong, never, why are you asserting I said that? One of my best friends in the world is Catholic, and we work together and pray together several times a week. He does not think or believe he can become a God, and would never entertain such a thing, he is just trying to manage his family. Is he a Christian, I think so, but I do not know his heart. Just like my pastor, or my wife, I believe they are Christians, especially my wife, but that is between them and God. Not because they belong to a organization called a church and pay tithing and have good attendance, or a pretended perfection, but because of their faith in what He did. in my opinion true Christianity is a heart condition. MG, try this....Sunday Morning get up and praise your creator, take off your shirt and mow the lawn with no guilt, hose off the drive way, watch the Ram's win (hopefully) take your wife shopping and out for lunch... or take your kids or grand kids to a movie or ball game and rejoice with what you have been blessed with....it is liberating.

Paul speaks of a different Jesus and a different Gospel....not Evangelicals. That is the reality of the teaching. Do you think that the New Testament teaches that worthy men, that enter into plural marriages can become Gods, and be equal with God is power and knowledge, is a New Testament teaching, I disagree. And no matter how you slice it, that is a core LDS teaching which I see as not being Christian theology.

At any rate I am not judging you or any other Mormon, except for maybe Joseph and a few others, but in their case for their fruits, not their hearts.

Great conversation thanks more tomorrow.

[I Have Questions]

Have a look at how many posts you make here, then look at how many I’ve made. Then tell me which of us his neglecting his life in favour of posting here.

Then tell me why the mistakes people made when producing the KJV Bible in the 17th century appear verbatim in The Book of Mormon which is claimed to have been written 1,348 years earlier…

I would like to hear an LDS believer reconcile Skousen and Carmack's Early Modern English hypothesis with the plagiarized passages from the 17th century KJV Bible. Was someone on the ghost committee taking a page out of Peterson's blogging style and making a few shortcuts??

That’s a good question. As I see it, the ghost committee apologetic sprang to life out of a need to explain how language from the 16th and 17th centuries ended up in a 19th century translation of a supposedly 1st century written record. That seems a very convoluted way of ignoring the obviously plagiarised KJV Bible content found within the Book of Mormon, and which starts with the conclusion that The Book of Mormon is what it, Joseph, and the current Church claim it to be.

But the errors known to have been committed in the 17th century appearing in the Book of Mormon sink all those claims. For those mistakes to appear in the Book of Mormon, Joseph has to have plagiarised the KJV Bible. There’s no other explanation. For the ghost committee to have committed that mistake, simply means they too blindly plagiarised the KJV Bible. There’s no way out from this one except for the Church and Apologists to concede the point.

The Church has quietly addressed a similar issue with the Book of Mormon’s Lamanites and how they relate to today’s Native Americans - Lamanites went from the literal ancestors of the Native Americans, to then the principal ancestors, and on to now where they are just among the ancestors. So the Church can shift its ground on this. And it needs to. Silence just allows people to fill the vacuum with the assumption that because Joseph and the Church are obviously lying about part of the Book of Mormon, perhaps they are lying about all of it.

[Markk]

MG wrote....As a Latter-day Saint I see the Christian world in somewhat of a disarray with varying doctrinal positions and beliefs concerning ordinances, authority, attributes of God, etc. I’ve heard some say that they are all part of the ‘kingdom’. But how can that be when we know that there is only one Lord, one faith, and one baptism? Various churches teach conflicting doctrines. What gives?

Not essentially. The Bible reads that in the Body of Christ...i.e. The Church.... This a cut and paste from chapter 12. 1 Cor., please read the whole chapter.

"...For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearithe whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. ..."

God-breathed. HOLY Bible (eBook): KING JAMES VERSION [Without Chapters, Verses & Footnotes] (p. 663). Kindle Edition.

We are all different, but there is a essential line that divides. As and example....The fundies are closer in doctrine to the teaching of Joseph Smith than the Utah church, for sure. Is that a Christian church? Do you think that Warren Jeff's is a Christian, a lot of folks do?

[Markk]

MG wrote...Yes, I believe that God wants His children to become more like Him. Why in the world would He set limits? God will always be God and He will always be our Father but it simply makes common sense, at least to me and many others, that we can become like Him in many respects.

Okay, but you are either choosing your words very carefully, or you do not understand to full teachings of exaltation and the continuation of seed; the Plan of Salvation.

The church does not teach doctrinally that your are to become more like HF, but exactly like HF with all Power, Knowledge, Glory and Dominion that he and Jehovah have. To be perfect like HF in LDS thought is just that, be exactly like him.

When you say why would he set limits, that is a misunderstanding of how it works according to LDS theology. Eternal life (exaltation) is by personal obedience to eternal law and truths (the 3rd AoF). He became God, the very same way you can become a God....and all Gods before him, and after him. That is the Plan of Salvation and according to the Law of Eternal Progression.

Will God always be God according to LDS theology? That is a interesting debate. Does God have agency according to LDS thought? I have had many discussions with very smart LDS "lay apologists" that insist that Psalms 82 is a proof text that their is a host of Gods. Yet when I walk them through the logic behind it from a LDS context which demands that the Gods were wicked and can die like a man....they have to either concede that God has agency and can cease from being God, or that they were men with Godly authority. Talmage understood the contradictions that most LDS try to apply to the Psalm.

Anyways, you again assert you can be like him in many respects. That is not LDS theology, it teaches by all respects....they will have all the same attributes, and do everything he did and will do.

MG wrote...Don’t you hope for your children to obtain all that you have and wish a better life for them than what you might have had?

I want my Children to have peace In Christ, in His Grace. My heart is not so good, very bad. I know what it is capable of. I have no expectations of knowing everything, I don't want to know everything. I hope, as a wood worker I can handcraft a rocking chair one time without making countless mistakes along the way. Or have a day without a bad thought about someone or something. and lol...most importantly break 80 on the links without cheating. I have been blessed with awesome kids, I can only hope to be more like them if anything. No, I don't want to be a God, which is what LDS Eternal Life demands and is.

MG thanks for the conversation, it is good. I want to just add that as the church evolved core LDS doctrine has been watered down to talking points like you wrote here, when in fact core LDS theology demands so much more. From Gospel Principles....chapter 47 Blessings of Exaltation.


They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20). President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to His commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:36; italics in original).

Protestants do not see this a Christian Doctrine.

[MG 2.0]

MG wrote....As a Latter-day Saint I see the Christian world in somewhat of a disarray with varying doctrinal positions and beliefs concerning ordinances, authority, attributes of God, etc. I’ve heard some say that they are all part of the ‘kingdom’. But how can that be when we know that there is only one Lord, one faith, and one baptism? Various churches teach conflicting doctrines. What gives?

Not essentially. The Bible reads that in the Body of Christ...i.e. The Church.... This a cut and paste from chapter 12. 1 Cor., please read the whole chapter.

That’s a wonderful sermon. In verse 28 we read:

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets…

When you read that what comes to your mind? I think the restored church is able to accomplish a lot more as a result of having apostles and prophets giving direction and setting guidelines and limits on keys/authority.

[1 Cor. 12]

I think that much of what we read in this chapter holds true for the body of Christ as we see it in the larger Christian church(s).

Preeminent in LDS doctrine is that God is God and we are His children. God gives ‘permissions’ for His children to act in His name. It all boils down to what permissions have been given to whom. My belief is that the ‘permissions’ given to the CofJCofLDS are of a different nature…calling, you might say…than other churches and belief systems.

But they all have their purpose. Even God ordained.

I would say, however, that any system of belief that does more harm than good is one that has gone rogue. It is more difficult for God to work through those systems in order to bring individuals along towards greater light and knowledge that can help ‘redeem’ an individual. But even then, God being God…he has ways and means of bringing His purposes about.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

My heart is not so good, very bad. I know what it is capable of. I have no expectations of knowing everything, I don't want to know everything.

I think that as we turn our hearts to Christ our hearts can be changed and that we can become men/women of Christ and that His countenance can shine through us.

I also think that God will not hold anything back as long as He can trust us with what is given. Joseph Smith said that a man cannot be saved in ignorance and that as we gain knowledge we are that much better off as we move into the eternities.

That simple truth ‘tastes’ right to my soul. Sure, we are carnal in nature, but that carnal nature can be overcome. That is part of the journey of life. Choosing between the natural man and the man of Christ.

I think that is also why we have the Sabbath Day. To go to church, renew covenants with the Savior, and recommit to being in the world but not of the world.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

...Preeminent in LDS doctrine is that God is God and we are His children. God gives ‘permissions’ for His children to act in His name. It all boils down to what permissions have been given to whom. My belief is that the ‘permissions’ given to the CofJCofLDS are of a different nature…calling, you might say…than other churches and belief systems.

But they all have their purpose. Even God ordained.

I would say, however, that any system of belief that does more harm than good is one that has gone rogue. It is more difficult for God to work through those systems in order to bring individuals along towards greater light and knowledge that can help ‘redeem’ an individual...

Hm. The part I bolded is NOT a Christian belief, as I understand it. And let me guess, systems that have 'gone rogue' is anything not LDS, right? It sounds like the extreme end of christianity, as described here:

...Christendom often blatantly — and subversively — propagates that Christians are inherently happier, more spiritual, and generally “better” than everyone else — they’re not. Some Christian religious leaders falsely suggest that although non-Christians may appear nice and moral and content, they’re actually struggling with hopelessness and suffer from a “feeling of emptiness.”

By stereotyping secular culture and pitting populations against each other, feelings of superiority and self-righteousness cloud their perception of others. Us vs. them hyperbole is spiced with fear-mongering rhetoric and condescension. These poisoned messages are motivated by greed, political power, wealth, social status, and carnal comfort.

The concept that Christians are — and should be — "better" than everyone else reinforces an attitude of Manifest Destiny, where political, social, and economic power is wrapped under the guise of fulfilling God’s will. Simultaneously, these Christians will refuse to love others, and their faith becomes a motivational tool to oppress the “others” rather than generously love them, and will all be rationalized as practicing “Christianity.” ...
https://sojo.net/articles/no-christians ... d's%20will.

Just insert 'Mormons like MG' into the last passage I bolded, and that's your message. It's not a true reflection of the best of christianity, at all.

[MG 2.0]

Simultaneously, these Christians will refuse to love others, and their faith becomes a motivational tool to oppress the “others” rather than generously love them…

What???

Not…

Regards,
MG