Muslims praying in a relief society room with images of Christ covered

[ceeboo]

I think they should nickname this cultural hall "the border."

I didn't realize you were a nevermo, Ceeboo! What got you into Mormonism?

About 20-ish years ago, on another online message board, I read a thread about Mormonism (I knew exactly zero about Mormonism at the time) - the thread boiled down to several people attacking another board member who was Mormon (several Christians were the attackers, imagine that). Anyway, because I was fairly interested in what I read, I figured the best way to learn about this thing called Mormonism was to ask Mormons directly, so I looked online and found a LDS message board. What lead me here was when I was posting at MAD (banned from there years ago) and I saw many references about this place ("shady acres" the place where all toxic ex-Mormon rabid atheists hung out to spread demonic lies about the LDS apologists and the Mormon church) - So, I figured I would come here and see for myself - And the rest is history.........

[Moksha]

When another religious group offers their space for free, it is respectful not to cover the paintings of the individuals they honor or revere. Now, if they rented the space, my perspective shifts completely; they have the option to take down the paintings.

Covering the picture of Jesus or Joseph is much simpler than taking it down. Islam demands no iconography. This was done in Australia where people are probably nicer in their approach to religion.

[drumdude]

DCP made another great post on this:

Frankly, I’ve been discouraged and disheartened by some of the responses to the issue. Many have been supportive of the idea of permitting others to pray in one of our buildings. (This has actually happened many times, in many locations, over many years.) But some have been concerned, and a few have been vehemently opposed. What I’ve found most depressing has been the militant ignorance of some of the opponents. (I confess, though, that it’s amusing to be told by a few of them that I need to read the Qur’an and learn something about Islam; I’ve read the Qur’an and taught the Qur’an — in both English translation and Arabic — more times than I can count, and I’ve taught and written about Islam for decades. This article in the Ensign was specifically requested by the First Presidency, which ought to suggest at least something of how the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints regard Islam and choose to approach the topic.)

I’ve read some astonishing claims that have been advanced with absolute assurance. Here are some of them, and I’m only picking a few of the more obviously crazy declarations:

Muslims worship Muhammad.
Muslims are commanded to kill Christians.
Allah is the name of a false god, like Apollo or Zeus.
Islam is to be imposed by force.
The prominent philosophers, scientists, and mathematicians of the Islamic golden age were mostly Jews and Christians.
Jews and Christians have always been suppressed by Islamic rule.
Islam has always smothered progress and Islamic civilization has contributed nothing to the world.
Christians are forbidden to worship in many Islamic countries.
Lebanon was a wonderful place until Muslims began to move into it (which apparently occurred fairly recently).
Islam despises Jesus.
Islam means “submission,” which means submission to a Muslim ruler.

Like an alcoholic walking by the swinging doors of a tavern, I find it almost irresistibly tempting to respond to some of this.

One fellow, imagining himself to be delivering the death blow against me, demanded whether I was seriously arguing that Jesus and Allah are the same person. I responded that, yes, that was precisely what I was arguing — I’m leaving aside, for the moment, the distinction between Father and Son — and that I was doing so on the basis of the first verse of the Gospel of John, where “the Word” is almost universally understood by Christians as a reference to Jesus Christ. I provide the passage here first in the King James translation, and then in a standard Arabic rendering:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

1 فِي البَدْءِ كَانَ الكَلِمَةُ
وَكَانَ الكَلِمَةُ مَعَ اللهِ،
وَكَانَ الكَلِمَةُ هُوَ اللهَ.
Now, I “merge” them:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [Allah], and the Word was God [Allah]. (John 1:1)
QED.

Of course, we can do similar things with other biblical passages, to say nothing of the other Standard Works. In Genesis 1:1, who created the heavens and the earth? The Arabic versions of the Bible all make it perfectly clear that it was Allah who created the heavens and the earth. Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians all worship Allah, just as the German-speakers who still worship at all worship Gott, and French-speakers worship Dieu and Spanish-speakers worship Dios.

As to the claim that Christians aren’t allowed to worship in many Islamic nations, I want to add an additional comment: Maybe Taliban-ruled Afghanistan comes closest to being an officially Christian-free Islamic State. But it’s an exceptionally extreme and toxic place in every regard. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has organized units — wards and stakes as well as branches and districts — that meet on the Arabian Peninsula (including Saudi Arabia), in Lebanon, Pakistan, Jordan, Turkey, Egypt, Malaysia, and etc. I’ve worshiped in several of them myself. Temples have been announced for the United Arab Emirates and for Jakarta, Indonesia. And I like the design of the stake center in Abu Dhabi, shown above. It’s unique and, I think, quite beautiful.

My only small criticism (I think I’ve said this before in a more sarcastic and harsh manner) is that I wish DCP would similarly respect atheism, and avoid repeating misconceptions about their beliefs (or in this case lack thereof).

The main misconception being that atheists are “just as dogmatic as theists.” Atheism is by definition simply the lack of theistic belief. A rock is atheist, just like a rock is apolitical, and that doesn’t mean the rock is dogmatic. An atheist could be dogmatic in their belief God certainly does not exist, but that is rarely the case when you ask them what they believe.

I think a deep understanding of someone else’s worldview, like DCP has with Islam, fosters great respect. We should all strive to do this even with the worldviews we most disagree with.

[ceeboo]

Frankly, I’ve been discouraged and disheartened by some of the responses to the issue. Many have been supportive of the idea of permitting others to pray in one of our buildings. (This has actually happened many times, in many locations, over many years.) But some have been concerned, and a few have been vehemently opposed. What I’ve found most depressing has been the militant ignorance of some of the opponents. (I confess, though, that it’s amusing to be told by a few of them that I need to read the Qur’an and learn something about Islam; I’ve read the Qur’an and taught the Qur’an — in both English translation and Arabic — more times than I can count, and I’ve taught and written about Islam for decades. This article in the Ensign was specifically requested by the First Presidency, which ought to suggest at least something of how the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints regard Islam and choose to approach the topic.)

I’ve read some astonishing claims that have been advanced with absolute assurance. Here are some of them, and I’m only picking a few of the more obviously crazy declarations:

Crazy declarations? Without getting overly involved in the thread and/or what DCP is suggesting, I will just take the first one on the list.

Muslims worship Muhammad.

Muslims do worship (a.k.a. pray to) Muhammad - they do this five times a day.

[drumdude]

Crazy declarations? Without getting overly involved in the thread and/or what DCP is suggesting, I will just take the first one on the list.

Muslims worship Muhammad.

Muslims do worship (a.k.a. pray to) Muhammad - they do this five times a day.

Ceeboo, here are some english translations of what Muslims say during their prayers:

Muslim Devotionals & Prayers

1.Shahada

“There is no god but Allah. Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.”

The shahada is the distillation of Islam into a single prayer. The two short sentences sum up the basic beliefs of every Muslim regardless of whether they are Shiites, Sunnis or Sufis. As well as being a statement of faith, recitation of the shahada is a requirement for any Muslim.

2. Imaani Mufassal

“I believe in Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, the Last Day, and in Taqdir, that all good and bad is from Allah the Most High and I believe in the resurrection after death.”

This prayer touches on several of Islam’s most important tenets. The belief in Allah is, of course, an echo of the shahada, but in this prayer “Messengers” is plural in order to represent all of Allah’s prophets, not just Muhammad.

3. Before, During and After Making Wudhu

“(I commence Wudhu), in the name of Allah the Great and all praise be to Allah (for keeping me faithful) in the Deen (religion) of Islam.” “O Allah, forgive my sins and grant me abundance in my home and blessings in my livelihood.” “O Allah, make me of the repenters and make me of the purified.”

Wudhu is the ritual purification that Muslims undertake before performing salah.

4. Adhaan and Iqaamah

“Allah is the greatest. Allah is the greatest. I bear witness that there is no God besides Allah. I bear witness that there is no God besides Allah. I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. Come to Salaah (prayer). Come to Salaah (prayer). Come to success. Come to success. Allah is the greatest. Allah is the greatest. There is no God besides Allah.”

4.Completing the Quran

“O Allah, divert my restlessness in the grave into peace. O Allah let me receive Your mercy by means of the Holy Quraan Shareef and make it my guide as well as a source of light, guidance and grace for me. O Allah, revive my memory of whatever I have forgotten from the Holy Quraan, grant me understanding of whatever part of it I know not, enable me to recite it during hours of day and night and make it my main argumentative support (in all matters), O Nourisher of the worlds.”

SHORT MUSLIM PRAYERS

ALFATIHAH

In the name of God, the infinitely Compassionate and Merciful. Praise be to God, Lord of all the worlds. The Compassionate, the Merciful. Ruler on the Day of Reckoning. You alone do we worship, and You alone do we ask for help. Guide us on the straight path, the path of those who have received your grace; not the path of those who have brought down wrath, nor of those who wander astray. Amen.

Ayat ‘Al-Kursi’

“Allah (God, the Lord)There is no god except Him, Hayy al- Qayyum, Existing. He is not to be visited by the dream or the slumber. Everything in the welkin and at the Earth belongs to Him. Who comes to the defense before Him except according to His will!? He knows that has been and is to be. Nobody can know even a particle of His ilm except according to His will. The Welkin and the Earth are embraced by Kursi (Great Awrang) of Him, and He is not troubled with the worry of them [of all that is in our galactic system]. He is Allah [Supreme Being over all according to all characteristics], the Great [His dignity is boundless]!”

Al-Kafiroon

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful Say: O, unbelievers! I do not worship that you worship, and you do not worship that which I worship. I do not worship that you worship, and you do not worship that which I worship. You have a faith [religion] of your own, and I have mine.

An-Nasr

When comes the Help of God, and Victory, And thou dost see the people enter God’s Religion in crowds, Celebrate the praises of thy Lord, and pray for His Forgiveness: For He is Oft-Returning (in Grace and Mercy).

Al-Falaq

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the Daybreak From the evil of that which He created; From the evil of the darkness when it is intense, And from the evil of malignant witchcraft, And from the evil of the envier when he envies.

Al-Naas

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind, The King of mankind, The God of mankind, From the evil of the retreating whisperer – Who whispers in the hearts of mankind, Of the jinn and of mankind.

https://www.2019wsj.org/wp-content/uplo ... ionals.pdf

None of these are praying to Muhammad. They are very similar to Mormonism and Catholicism, where they make mention of Joseph Smith or Mary. But Islam is one of the most extremely monotheistic religions there is. "There is no God but God" is an extremely important foundational doctrine.

[ceeboo]

Crazy declarations? Without getting overly involved in the thread and/or what DCP is suggesting, I will just take the first one on the list.


Muslims do worship (a.k.a. pray to) Muhammad - they do this five times a day.

Ceeboo, here are some english translations of what Muslims say during their prayers:

Thanks for taking the time, DD - I am fairly familiar with much of this. I'm not really interested in this; the only reason I posted about it was because I was surprised by DCP's post (I was/am aware of DCP's history/study/teaching around the subject)

None of these are praying to Muhammad.

While this is what I hear many times from many people in many places, it isn't true. The prayers are literally to Muhammad.

A quick search to find said prayer from Arabic to English with a Muslim who prays the prayer.
https://youtu.be/niB4TU2QcOo?si=tZBZlWSNCbxJD-bd

[drumdude]

Ceeboo, here are some english translations of what Muslims say during their prayers:

Thanks for taking the time, DD - I am fairly familiar with much of this. I'm not really interested in this; the only reason I posted about it was because I was surprised by DCP's post (I was/am aware of DCP's history/study/teaching around the subject)

None of these are praying to Muhammad.

While this is what I hear many times from many people in many places, it isn't true. The prayers are literally to Muhammad.

A quick search to find said prayer from Arabic to English with a Muslim who prays the prayer.
https://youtu.be/niB4TU2QcOo?si=tZBZlWSNCbxJD-bd

This is as ridiculous and pedantic as Muslims claiming that Christians are polytheist for praying to Jesus and God separately.

What matters is the belief of the believer. Do Muslims believe they are worshiping Muhammad? Do Christians believe they are polytheists?

[ceeboo]

Thanks for taking the time, DD - I am fairly familiar with much of this. I'm not really interested in this; the only reason I posted about it was because I was surprised by DCP's post (I was/am aware of DCP's history/study/teaching around the subject)

While this is what I hear many times from many people in many places, it isn't true. The prayers are literally to Muhammad.

A quick search to find said prayer from Arabic to English with a Muslim who prays the prayer.
https://youtu.be/niB4TU2QcOo?si=tZBZlWSNCbxJD-bd

This is as ridiculous and pedantic as Muslims claiming that Christians are polytheist for praying to Jesus and God separately.

I didn't suggest anything about polytheism. I made a very brief comment about one of the items that DCP suggests are "crazy declarations" (Muslims worship Muhammad) because I was surprised he made the comment. You need not agree with me that praying to someone is worship - no worries.

What matters is the belief of the believer. Do Muslims believe they are worshiping Muhammad? Do Christians believe they are polytheists

What matters is subjective. I appreciate you sharing your opinion about what matters.

[drumdude]

This is as ridiculous and pedantic as Muslims claiming that Christians are polytheist for praying to Jesus and God separately.

I didn't suggest anything about polytheism. I made a very brief comment about one of the items that DCP suggests are "crazy declarations" (Muslims worship Muhammad) because I was surprised he made the comment. You need not agree with me that praying to someone is worship - no worries.

What matters is the belief of the believer. Do Muslims believe they are worshiping Muhammad? Do Christians believe they are polytheists

What matters is subjective. I appreciate you sharing your opinion about what matters.

I'm making a direct analogy to show you how weak the argument is. Christians and Muslims who mischaracterize each other in religious fights aren't a reliable source of information. It's just a game to score cheap points.

That's why Dan said what he did. He's studied Islam professionally his entire career. If Muslims secretly worshiped Muhammad he would have zero reason to cover for them.

[Jersey Girl]

Frankly, I’ve been discouraged and disheartened by some of the responses to the issue. Many have been supportive of the idea of permitting others to pray in one of our buildings. (This has actually happened many times, in many locations, over many years.) But some have been concerned, and a few have been vehemently opposed. What I’ve found most depressing has been the militant ignorance of some of the opponents. (I confess, though, that it’s amusing to be told by a few of them that I need to read the Qur’an and learn something about Islam; I’ve read the Qur’an and taught the Qur’an — in both English translation and Arabic — more times than I can count, and I’ve taught and written about Islam for decades. This article in the Ensign was specifically requested by the First Presidency, which ought to suggest at least something of how the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints regard Islam and choose to approach the topic.)

I’ve read some astonishing claims that have been advanced with absolute assurance. Here are some of them, and I’m only picking a few of the more obviously crazy declarations:

Crazy declarations? Without getting overly involved in the thread and/or what DCP is suggesting, I will just take the first one on the list.

Muslims worship Muhammad.

Muslims do worship (a.k.a. pray to) Muhammad - they do this five times a day.

They pray to Allah.