Muslims praying in a relief society room with images of Christ covered

[ceeboo]

Crazy declarations? Without getting overly involved in the thread and/or what DCP is suggesting, I will just take the first one on the list.

Muslims do worship (a.k.a. pray to) Muhammad - they do this five times a day.

They pray to Allah.

They pray to Allah and Muhammad.

[ceeboo]

I didn't suggest anything about polytheism. I made a very brief comment about one of the items that DCP suggests are "crazy declarations" (Muslims worship Muhammad) because I was surprised he made the comment. You need not agree with me that praying to someone is worship - no worries.

What matters is subjective. I appreciate you sharing your opinion about what matters.

I'm making a direct analogy to show you how weak the argument is.

I wasn't making an argument - I was letting you know, literally, what the Arabic translation into English words of the prayers are - Example: "Peace be upon you, O prophet" Praying directly to Muhammad.

Christians and Muslims who mischaracterize each other in religious fights aren't a reliable source of information. It's just a game to score cheap points.

I wasn't mischaracterizing anything, and I am not trying to score any points against Islam - I made a very brief post because I was surprised with DCP's post.

That's why Dan said what he did.

I have no idea why Dan said what he did, but I was surprised by what he said.

He's studied Islam professionally his entire career.

So what. Does someone need to study Islam their entire career to be able to comprehend what a few words in a row means?

If Muslims secretly worshiped Muhammad he would have zero reason to cover for them.

Who said anything about anyone secretly worshipping Muhammad - I certainly didn't. All I did was to tell what the prayer is (literally) - If you come to a different conclusion concerning "peace be upon you, O Muhammad" than I do, fine.

And I didn't suggest anything about anyone covering for anyone.

[drumdude]

You’re conflating three issues, Ceboo.

1) What the words say
2) What the words mean
3) What the people who pray the words believe

You objected to DCP saying “Muslims don’t worship Muhammad.” Then you turned it into “Muslims pray to Muhammad.” And your justification for it is “Muslims use the word “you” in their prayer, addressing it to Muhammad.

You can conflate all of these if you want, but they are not all the same thing. You’re building a mountain upon a word, completely ignoring what Muslims themselves say about this. Muslims believe they are asking God for blessings, they don’t believe they are praying to Muhammad instead of God.

[ceeboo]

You’re conflating three issues, Ceboo.

1) What the words say
2) What the words mean
3) What the people who pray the words believe

You objected to DCP saying “Muslims don’t worship Muhammad.”

I didn't object (why would I, a BB Christian object to a Mormon expressing opinions on Muhammad), I expressed that I was surprised and made a very brief comment. I could have written an entire chapter that would cover more than just the first item on his list.

Then you turned it into “Muslims pray to Muhammad.”

In my mind, worship and prayer are strongly tethered, If you disagree, no worries.

And your justification for it is “Muslims use the word “you” in their prayer, addressing it to Muhammad.

I gave you one example that is crystal clear that the prayer is speaking directly to Muhammad - a.k.a., praying to Muhammad.

You’re building a mountain upon a word. Muslims believe they are asking God for blessings, they don’t believe they are praying to Muhammad instead of God.

First, Muslims (like any other large number of people) have a variety of beliefs that span a wide spectrum (similar to the many denominations within the umbrella of MS Christianity), so suggesting what Muslims believe is fairly meaningless to discussion. Having said that, what individual Muslims believe isn't what I am talking about. I am talking about the words in a prayer that most Muslims recite 5 times daily. In addition, I would suggest that many Muslims don't really know what they are reciting in Arabic (Many Muslims don't even speak Arabic), they just have things memorized (I have Lebanese blood in my veins, so I have some family references that I am relying on when I offer this suggestion). Lastly, I didn't imply that Muslims were praying to Muhammad instead of Allah, I stated that the Muslims pray to BOTH Allah and Muhammad.

Anyway, I really didn't intend to get this involved in this topic (honestly just was surprised by DCP's comments) so if you disagree with anything I posted here and reply, I will probably leave it there and give you the last word.

[drumdude]

Muslims do worship (a.k.a. pray to) Muhammad - they do this five times a day.

I think this is just my main disagreement, praying to is not synonymous with worshiping. Growing up as a Catholic, I was very familiar with prayers to the saints and Mary asking for blessings or intercession.

“Mother Mary, full of grace, pray for us sinners”. If you look at it completely out of context you could naïvely claim we are worshiping Mary. But it was obvious from context and religious tradition that we were not worshiping the saints or Mary. Even if some evangelical tried to get us in a “gotcha” moment, there was no doubt who we were worshiping.

I imagine it’s the same with Islam. I hope DCP is reading this and weighs in on a future blog post.

[Jersey Girl]

They pray to Allah.

They pray to Allah and Muhammad.

Show me.

[Moksha]

They pray to Allah and Muhammad.

Show me.

Ceeboo, the first tenet of Islam is that there is no god but Allah.

[ceeboo]

They pray to Allah and Muhammad.

Show me.

Instructions for performing "salah" (Salah, also known as Salat or Prayer, is one of the five pillars of Islam and is a fundamental act of worship for Muslims. It involves the obligatory act of praying 5 times a day at set times.

When reciting these prayers (performing salat) Muslims say, "As-salamu alaika ay-yuhan nabiy-yu", - which means, "Peace be upon YOU, O Prophet.".

They do not pray - for example: "peace be upon the prophet" - or "God please send peace upon the prophet" - they are praying directly to Muhammad when they pray "peace be unto YOU, O prophet. All Muslim sources claim that performing salat is a fundamental act of worship.

So, when I read that DCP suggests "Muslims worship Muhammad" is "an astonishing claim" and a "crazy declaration", I was surprised.

Again, I am not trying to score points against Islam (I am fairly familiar with Islam/Muhammad/Iasha/Idda's/Quranic verses/Caba/Black Stone/etc) If I wanted to score points against Islam, I could do that. I made a very brief post about one of the things on DCP's list (I picked the first one on the list) because I was surprised by it. That's all.

[I Have Questions]

Show me.

Instructions for performing "salah" (Salah, also known as Salat or Prayer, is one of the five pillars of Islam and is a fundamental act of worship for Muslims. It involves the obligatory act of praying 5 times a day at set times.

When reciting these prayers (performing salat) Muslims say, "As-salamu alaika ay-yuhan nabiy-yu", - which means, "Peace be upon YOU, O Prophet.".

They do not pray - for example: "peace be upon the prophet" - or "God please send peace upon the prophet" - they are praying directly to Muhammad when they pray "peace be unto YOU, O prophet. All Muslim sources claim that performing salat is a fundamental act of worship.

So, when I read that DCP suggests "Muslims worship Muhammad" is "an astonishing claim" and a "crazy declaration", I was surprised.

I suspect DCP knows a lot more about it than most.

Muslims do not worship Muhammad as worship in Islam is only for God.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_in_Islam

Muslims do not believe that Muhammad was in any way divine, and this is confirmed in the Qur’an, which states: Muhammad is no more than a messenger (Surah 3:144).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z ... revision/7

[Jersey Girl]

Show me.

Instructions for performing "salah" (Salah, also known as Salat or Prayer, is one of the five pillars of Islam and is a fundamental act of worship for Muslims. It involves the obligatory act of praying 5 times a day at set times.

When reciting these prayers (performing salat) Muslims say, "As-salamu alaika ay-yuhan nabiy-yu", - which means, "Peace be upon YOU, O Prophet.".

They do not pray - for example: "peace be upon the prophet" - or "God please send peace upon the prophet" - they are praying directly to Muhammad when they pray "peace be unto YOU, O prophet. All Muslim sources claim that performing salat is a fundamental act of worship.

So, when I read that DCP suggests "Muslims worship Muhammad" is "an astonishing claim" and a "crazy declaration", I was surprised.

Again, I am not trying to score points against Islam (I am fairly familiar with Islam/Muhammad/Iasha/Idda's/Quranic verses/Caba/Black Stone/etc) If I wanted to score points against Islam, I could do that. I made a very brief post about one of the things on DCP's list (I picked the first one on the list) because I was surprised by it. That's all.

Ceebs when I say "show me" I'm asking for something authoritative from the Isamic community itself, a primary source. Not your personal description.