Trump Desires to be Sued Over Birthright Citizenship, Does Anyone Understand Why?

[Markk]

You are the one that brought up fentanyl, not me. How long have you been posting on this forum? LoL, sure threads here never assimilate off topic. I get your allegiance to your liberal and woke tribe and views won't allow you to admit that Trump just might be doing some positive things, but don't make lame excuses like "going off topic" when you started it and do it all the time.

Markk, I haven’t said that Trump can’t do ‘good things’. If you think otherwise, link to the post that supposedly claims this.

I have said that it remains to be seen if Trump will do some good things. Stuff like killing the 14th Amendment and mass deportations do nothing to resolve the issues you’ve been harping about, like homelessness and fentanyl abuse, or drug use in general.

As the saying goes, “even a blind squirrel can find a nut”. It remains to be seen if Trump is interested in solving any problems, or just interested in pressing buttons and trying to ‘trigger liberals’ by spending his ‘political capital’ on dog and pony shows.

And if you want to talk about USAID, there’s another thread already delving into that subject. Don’t act hurt that folks might not decide to discuss it in this thread.

I have never read anything from you that speaks well of him, not once. I'm sure if I went and read your posts about him over the past years I wouldn't find too many, if any, positive accomplishments he has done. The rest of your post here confirms that. What positives things IYO has he done so far in his first few weeks....anything? What about deporting some very very bad illegal immigrants, is that a positive?

It funny how you came here and asked me questions that were off topic, then complain when I do the same...oh well.

by the way, Happy Super Bowl Day. I just finished cleaning up the patio and BBQ, I have my kids and grand kids coming over and it is 68 degrees, blue skies, and I am truly blessed. Hope you have a great day.

[canpakes]

I have never read anything from you that speaks well of him, not once.

Do you find that his history and behavior allows for a lot of opportunities to do that?

I'm sure if I went and read your posts about him over the past years I wouldn't find too many, if any, positive accomplishments he has done. The rest of your post here confirms that. What positives things IYO has he done so far in his first few weeks....anything? What about deporting some very very bad illegal immigrants, is that a positive?

Sure, deporting ‘some very very bad illegal immigrants’ is a good thing. The previous Administration did the same. I don’t remember singling Biden out for that accomplishment.

Trump has now also deported hundreds of immigrants who were following the rules assigned when they entered under the CBP One app. It was easy to find and deport them as ICE knew where they were because those immigrants were following the rules and had reported where they were residing. Is that ‘good’ that they were booted? I don’t see that as a win, sorry.

It funny how you came here and asked me questions that were off topic, then complain when I do the same...oh well.

This happens in every other thread. We’ve all done it, but in my opinion you sometimes take it to extremes. It’s a regular feature of yours when an argument tangent that you’re on runs out of steam or ends up not panning out as you would like, upon which you will bring in additional and often unrelated topics.

by the way, Happy Super Bowl Day. I just finished cleaning up the patio and BBQ, I have my kids and grand kids coming over and it is 68 degrees, blue skies, and I am truly blessed. Hope you have a great day.

To you as well. Enjoy the day!

[Markk]

Do you find that his history and behavior allows for a lot of opportunities to do that?

Yes I do.

Pakes wrote...Sure, deporting ‘some very very bad illegal immigrants’ is a good thing. The previous Administration did the same. I don’t remember singling Biden out for that accomplishment.

Well, I believe we can agree he is a "bit" more aggressive, but I'll take it; that it is a good thing getting these bad folks out of here.

Pakes..Trump has now also deported hundreds of immigrants who were following the rules assigned when they entered under the CBP One app. It was easy to find and deport them as ICE knew where they were because those immigrants were following the rules and had reported where they were residing. Is that ‘good’ that they were booted? I don’t see that as a win, sorry.

CFR, in what way were they here....who were these folks? Were they here legally, and how were they behaving here? CFR.

Pakes...This happens in every other thread. We’ve all done it, but in my opinion you sometimes take it to extremes. It’s a regular feature of yours when an argument tangent that you’re on runs out of steam or ends up not panning out as you would like, upon which you will bring in additional and often unrelated topics.

Lol ...You started it here! It is just nonsense to somehow blame this on me. You just did not like the way it was going.

To you as well. Enjoy the day!

It was a crappy game in my opinion, but a great time with family. But I did win $200 in a work pool, one of my squares hit. I just hope the Eagles fans don't burn the city down tonight.

[Markk]

Sure! Are you saying that first hand experience and living what I write, is somehow a weak argument? I believe my anecdotal and subjective experience can be objectively backed up, while your assertions fall. Where do you live, Dwight?

I doubt roads are going to affect this much. They fly it Mexico, I would guess....why would they drive it on roads in a different continent, with an ocean in between, when they can just fly it in, or enough chemicals in one 40 foot conex on a cargo ship to kill half the world?

I think you are just trying to force one talking point into another without thinking it through. How do you think the chemicals to make fentanyl coming from China, are getting to the cartels?

My assertions have as much proof as yours, actually mine have more since they aren't based on anecdotal evidence. You guess? So you don't know? Let me illuminate you. There might be a small amount that goes by plane, the vast majority is shipped. It is easier to move things by ship than plane, and you can move more at once. If you can move things around in how they are shipped so it isn't a straight line it sometimes becomes easier to get past checks. You are so easily misled that the name of the initiative of belts and roads has confused you. It is about infrastructure, and gaining a foothold in places. Guess what China will do things like ship supplies and materials for projects, so now there are people in ports who know how things work and might let a container or two slide by. That is how it is relevant.

You are right, I am injecting something else, same as you have injected something else in this discussion about the 14th amendment. I'm playing your game, do you not see it?

As far as a shipping by a cargo ship....I said that was a reality? So other than those two options, what means and methods do you think they use? It is much easier, efficient and certainly faster. From a simple google search of "Air shipping from China to Mexico," one can ship 1,000 pounds of "merchandise" for under 5k. You can do so with a 40 foot container (conex) for much cheaper, but not as efficient and I assume slower. Why not just have it delivered to your door direct? Either way, they do not need any more infrastructure to get it across.

https://www.sino-shipping.com/freight-c ... 207%20days.

Are you saying that Mexico, one of the most corrupt governments in the world, is not letting these illegal "widgets" come in now? And that these connections are not already solidified and need this infrastructure to get more chemicals in, despite there is enough opioids coming over the border now that we can't keep up with it?

We have to keep in mind also that much of it, probably much much more, is coming directly from China to the US, via air and cargo shipping, which is another problem we need to tackle.

It is an epidemic that is inflicting a trillion or two dollars a year on our country now, it is out of control now....they don't need the infrastructure now, they are doing just fine. 100k or more Americans are dying each year, I don't think you folks are really seeing how huge a problem it is because of the political lens you wear, in my opinion.

I am not talking about changing the subject, that happens on every thread, I am talking about forcing the something into a context that does not really fit. Apples and oranges, at least at this point in time.

[Dwight]

We have to keep in mind also that much of it, probably much much more, is coming directly from China to the US, via air and cargo shipping, which is another problem we need to tackle.

No we don't, DEA and every reputable source says 90% is crossing the Mexican border today.

It is an epidemic that is inflicting a trillion or two dollars a year on our country now, it is out of control now....they don't need the infrastructure now, they are doing just fine. 100k or more Americans are dying each year, I don't think you folks are really seeing how huge a problem it is because of the political lens you wear, in my opinion.

No reliable source cites that number. While it is high, all opioid addiction, which fentanyl is only part of, is 300-500 billion. Nothing to sneeze at, but it is at least 500 billion short of a trillion. I do see it as a huge problem, while it wasn't fentanyl or oxycodone I've been in more than one house and sat with family members dealing with an addicted to opiates. My dad has spent years dialing to get fentanyl dosage right to where he can have the best quality of life of managing pain from herpes zoster (shingles) he got while on chemo for lymphoma. I've taken prescribed oxycodone more than one time for pain management. (Edit to add I never got hooked on the stuff, I did take it one day that I got "high" and for me personally that was hell, I wanted to climb the walls and get out of my skin, but that is me, I handle pain quite well generally and heal from things quicker than my doctors anticipate, but I've been in a couple of spots I needed it to be able to manage and most importantly so I could do the physical therapy and workouts to heal from injuries.)

I am not talking about changing the subject, that happens on every thread, I am talking about forcing the something into a context that does not really fit. Apples and oranges, at least at this point in time.

Fentanyl from Mexico and birthright citizenship are two apples, but fentanyl from China is an orange?

Just to add the framers of the 14th amendment clearly stated that they meant for it to apply to all people born in the US except for diplomats and occupying armies. That would be things Senators Howard and Trumbull said specifically who were key in drafting and introducing it. While they had no concept of the world we live in now, you cannot say they did not intend for it to mean what they wrote. Otherwise the 2nd amendment must be limited to only apply to muskets and other weapons of the time period.

[Markk]

No we don't, DEA and every reputable source says 90% is crossing the Mexican border today.

I wasn't clear and I miss read an article (see below) about it being mostly direct. The chemicals for manufacturing the drugs come from China, whether by land or sea, to the Mexican labs, and then across the border. Yet lets say some comes directly. But CFR of what you read, lets get this right.

So, prior to the scheduling, prior to 2020, we had 90% of fentanyl consumed in the U.S. being shipped directly from China to the United States, often via post office, or from China to Mexico and then brought by Mexican cartels to the U.S. Once the scheduling takes place, Chinese trafficking networks start shipping precursor chemicals to the Mexican cartels who produce them, synthesize them into fentanyl, and then bring them to the U.S., mostly across the U.S.-Mexico border.https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the- ... id-crisis/

No reliable source cites that number. While it is high, all opioid addiction, which fentanyl is only part of, is 300-500 billion. Nothing to sneeze at, but it is at least 500 billion short of a trillion. I do see it as a huge problem, while it wasn't fentanyl or oxycodone I've been in more than one house and sat with family members dealing with an addicted to opiates. My dad has spent years dialing to get fentanyl dosage right to where he can have the best quality of life of managing pain from herpes zoster (shingles) he got while on chemo for lymphoma. I've taken prescribed oxycodone more than one time for pain management. (Edit to add I never got hooked on the stuff, I did take it one day that I got "high" and for me personally that was hell, I wanted to climb the walls and get out of my skin, but that is me, I handle pain quite well generally and heal from things quicker than my doctors anticipate, but I've been in a couple of spots I needed it to be able to manage and most importantly so I could do the physical therapy and workouts to heal from injuries.)

CFR on you reliable source, mine is from the The Council of Economic Advisers ( a government agency) had it well over 2 trillion in 2023, the 500 billion numbers I read was in 2015.

https://komonews.com/news/nation-world/ ... r-security

I read another one the other day, by the same agency, that under Biden a few years ago that it was at around 1.5 trillion. I can't find it , but I will look for it again when I get more time.

What is your source for 500 billion short of a "billion?" Let get this one right also, or at least the closest we can, it is important.

I am not talking about changing the subject, that happens on every thread, I am talking about forcing the something into a context that does not really fit. Apples and oranges, at least at this point in time.

Fentanyl from Mexico and birthright citizenship are two apples, but fentanyl from China is an orange?

Just to add the framers of the 14th amendment clearly stated that they meant for it to apply to all people born in the US except for diplomats and occupying armies. That would be things Senators Howard and Trumbull said specifically who were key in drafting and introducing it. While they had no concept of the world we live in now, you cannot say they did not intend for it to mean what they wrote. Otherwise the 2nd amendment must be limited to only apply to muskets and other weapons of the time period.
[/quote]

I did not change the subject, other's did. Both are important subjects and I don't get the pushback from the thread changing, most every longer thread does here. My opinion is some folks don't like dealing with the realities of lax border, and especially over the past four years, again my opinion.

[Dwight]

I suppose you could argue for what that study is saying, though it is a bit loose. It is taking the study I looked at and just applying population growth and inflation and the future cost impacts. I was looking at what was taking the original study and looking at estimating the actual costs currently for the year. The other problem is that it is opioid abuse, not just fentanyl abuse.

So the original study says that you are looking at 300-500 billion costs in a year, but there is another 500 billion over time. Even applying inflation and other population or incidence markers that are known it is closer to 500 billion. However that secondary number is saying that if a 30 year old abuses opioids, overdoses and dies then there is a cost to healthcare, law enforcement, society, family, which includes they aren't working until retirement and contributing to the economy, if they had kids they often end up in foster care, secondary, tertiary, and so on effects. Some of which they are estimating and putting an amount on the economic hardships those kids will face for the rest of their lives. E.g. even if you stopped all opioid abuse today there is a future cost that will come.

As the saying goes, which my statistics professors liked to repeat often, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. I guess you could argue for over a trillion, but I feel much better talking about the cost this year being the actual cost this year, and if talking about the future cost that it be clearly denoted.

[Markk]

I suppose you could argue for what that study is saying, though it is a bit loose. It is taking the study I looked at and just applying population growth and inflation and the future cost impacts. I was looking at what was taking the original study and looking at estimating the actual costs currently for the year. The other problem is that it is opioid abuse, not just fentanyl abuse.

So the original study says that you are looking at 300-500 billion costs in a year, but there is another 500 billion over time. Even applying inflation and other population or incidence markers that are known it is closer to 500 billion. However that secondary number is saying that if a 30 year old abuses opioids, overdoses and dies then there is a cost to healthcare, law enforcement, society, family, which includes they aren't working until retirement and contributing to the economy, if they had kids they often end up in foster care, secondary, tertiary, and so on effects. Some of which they are estimating and putting an amount on the economic hardships those kids will face for the rest of their lives. E.g. even if you stopped all opioid abuse today there is a future cost that will come.

As the saying goes, which my statistics professors liked to repeat often, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. I guess you could argue for over a trillion, but I feel much better talking about the cost this year being the actual cost this year, and if talking about the future cost that it be clearly denoted.

The epidemic is costing a trillion or more, easily. It is killing tens of thousands of Americans yearly. Fentanyl overdose is the leading cause of death for a few generations of young men and women in our country. It is coming from China and from Mexico primarily. in my opinion we need to put all hands of deck, now, and stop with the attitude it is not really a big deal and do everything we can to try to stop it the best we can. I am sad at all these excuses.

I am guessing but 30 -50 billon would rebuild Maui, LA fires areas, and North Carolina storm damages....to put it in perspective.

For Americans age 18-45, the leading cause of death is fentanyl overdose. The addictive drug is responsible for nearly 70% of the United States' 107,000+ drug overdose deaths in the past year and is 50 times stronger than heroin and 100 times stronger than morphine. DEA Administrator Anne Milgram addresses its origin, appearance and composition, and distribution in the United States.

https://www.getsmartaboutdrugs.gov/medi ... ose-deaths

[Markk]

Dwight,

Here is the other article I read, that I could not find, but I alluded to it in my last post .... https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index ... EB55EB7C7C

In addition to its effects on survivors, families and communities, the spike in opioid use disorder
cases and fatal overdoses during the pandemic increased the economic toll of the opioid crisis in
2020. Adapting an approach used by researchers at the Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention (CDC), the Joint Economic Committee estimates the opioid epidemic cost the United
States nearly $1.5 trillion in 2020 alone—up 37% from 2017, when the CDC last measured the
cost.

According to the graph, in 2017 the costs was estimated at 1.07 trillion dollars. Then 1.5 trillion in 2020... so the 2023 number of 2.7 trillion is certainly realistic and in the ball park.

I read from several source that the cost of one fentanyl pill sells for anywhere from 50 cents to 5 dollars. This means that for the price of a cup of coffee, a person get high, from what I read for 4-6 hours.

I also read that there is such a flooded market, that the suppliers are giving the "pushers" the product up front, and they can pay then back after it is sold.

[Physics Guy]

Why does fentanyl have to come to the US from anywhere else at all? Fentanyl doesn't contain any rare elements that have to be sourced somewhere else. It's not a super-complicated molecule as these things go. I am not yet a chemistry guy, and there might be something tricky in synthesising this particular critter, but I can hardly imagine that there is any advanced chemical technique that is beyond American technology and yet is exploited at scale in illegal labs in other countries.

I would expect most fentanyl consumed in the US to have been made in the US. I would be skeptical of any claims otherwise. How the heck would anyone be able to be sure that any large fraction of it came from China? If significant amounts of fentanyl are coming to the US from those countries, as indicated by regularly intercepting and seizing some of it, I suspect this is just because fentanyl is a popular product that anybody who is smuggling anything will try to smuggle.

Foreign producers competing with domestic labs will have higher shipping costs, including the difficulty of getting illegal substances over a border, but as long as their labor costs are lower by enough, they'll be competitive in an unsaturated and inefficient market. I expect the fentanyl industry is like most industries that way.

Cutting down on fentanyl imports by watching more of the border will be much like imposing a tariff on fentanyl. It will cut down somewhat on the supply of fentanyl in the US—initially. Without the additional supply and lower prices from foreign competition, however, the price that domestic fentanyl can command will go up. This will make the market more attractive to American criminals, increasing domestic production. So supply might not go all the way up to where it was when it included imports, but it won't end up falling by as much as the imports were.

It's not as though stopping all fentanyl imports would set any hard ceiling on the amount of fentanyl in the US. The amount of fentanyl in the US is not limited by the American supply of carbon and nitrogen atoms. It's limited by the level of demand from US consumers.

So I'm not sure that raising the price of fentanyl by maybe ten percent or so, by eliminating all fentanyl imports, is going to save many lives. The consumers who weren't deterred by the risk of death will probably find some way to come up with that much extra money.