The Fentanyl Crisis thread

[Gadianton]

Well, look at that, Markk is stumbling toward the answer I've been trying to spoon-feed him. We need to deport them because "they took our jobs!".

If we perform a mass removal of the supply of cheap labor, which is illegal immigrant labor, then the other workers in his industry -- including Markk himself -- will make more money.

I'd like to pause a moment and not consider the ultimate economic outcome of the situation. Markk is absolutely right, that removing all the illegals will raise worker wages. A living wage is an appropriate concern for the people of a society. Now, that doesn't negate the fact that mass deporting working illegals will certainly result in human rights violations. However, it does address the question of why we would even consider doing it.

Donald Trump's lies that Markk endorses about immigrants eating peoples pets or being generally insane or criminals is not a justification because it's a lie (mere campaign rhetoric for the non-Christian Ceeboo). Markk's tantrums for the last three months about fentanyl and immigration is a massive red herring. We can completely close the border and stop -- possibly stop -- most of the fentanyl without deporting a single working illegal immigrant. It's scapegoating at a horrifying level. All the other excuses have been nonsense as well.

When we ask, why should we stop at a stop light? The answer isn't because the law says we have to. The answer is in the reasoning for the law in the first place. If the reasoning behind the law is shoddy, the law itself is called into question. Our laws are based on consequentialist reasoning. The reason we have stop lights is to avoid intersection accidents and maximize traffic flow. What is the reason for not allowing non-citizens to work here without authorization? To protect the jobs of the citizens who live here.

Whether one disagrees with the economic reasoning or the politics and ideals or not is a secondary question, Markk has finally answered the primary question of why we would even consider a mass deportation. Congrats Markk!! you finally made a modicum of sense.

[canpakes]

Well, look at that, Markk is stumbling toward the answer I've been trying to spoon-feed him. We need to deport them because "they took our jobs!".

Gotta say, though, I’ve never actually seen an illegal immigrant take anyone else’s job.

What happens is that the folks at the top of the employment food chain offer jobs to desperate job seekers at below-market rates, then let go of higher-paid folks … to maximize their profit.

This point has always been lost on a few of our board regulars.

[Markk]

Gad: Well, look at that, Markk is stumbling toward the answer I've been trying to spoon-feed him. We need to deport them because "they took our jobs!".

Taking Jobs is just one of the realities....Lol...what do you mean spoon feeding, if you would have asked I would have told you that is one reason, or many. All you do is Hitler rant and duct my questions. Are you saying they are not taking jobs?

If we perform a mass removal of the supply of cheap labor, which is illegal immigrant labor, then the other workers in his industry -- including Markk himself -- will make more money.

It cracks me up how you just make stuff up. I doubt if I would make more money, I am on salary. Bonus' are relative with profit so I doubt that they would change.

Not just construction, but all businesses that us illegal labor.

Gads rant begins: I'd like to pause a moment and not consider the ultimate economic outcome of the situation. Markk is absolutely right, that removing all the illegals will raise worker wages. A living wage is an appropriate concern for the people of a society. Now, that doesn't negate the fact that mass deporting working illegals will certainly result in human rights violations. However, it does address the question of why we would even consider doing it.

For one of many reasons, to raise wages and help young hard working citizens earn a living wage and buy a home. And although a different topic, get them off the couch and their phones and into a workforce they feel the can grow in. What is wrong with that.

Are you backing off your human rights fail? lets see.

Gad: Donald Trump's lies that Markk endorses about immigrants eating peoples pets or being generally insane or criminals is not a justification because it's a lie (mere campaign rhetoric for the non-Christian Ceeboo). Markk's tantrums for the last three months about fentanyl and immigration is a massive red herring. .

LOl, where did I say that?

I said that anyone here illegally, commits a crime, of being here illegally. That is just a fact, are you denying that?

Where did I throw a tantrum, CFR please.

Gad: We can completely close the border and stop -- possibly stop -- most of the fentanyl without deporting a single working illegal immigrant. It's scapegoating at a horrifying level. All the other excuses have been nonsense as well

Again I never said anything that demands such a scenario. Once again you are arguing with your own strawman.

Gad: When we ask, why should we stop at a stop light? The answer isn't because the law says we have to. The answer is in the reasoning for the law in the first place. If the reasoning behind the law is shoddy, the law itself is called into question. Our laws are based on consequentialist reasoning. The reason we have stop lights is to avoid intersection accidents and maximize traffic flow. What is the reason for not allowing non-citizens to work here without authorization? To protect the jobs of the citizens who live here.

For one again you are limiting it to your latest straw-man. Our immigration laws in regard to anyone coming here is to know who they are first, and to vet them.

Don't you think it is a good idea to know who they are, and then give them a work visa so we keep track of who is in our country? If they grow and prove themselves and productive, then they can apply for permanent citizenship.

Again why can't you just come out as say we should do away with immigrations laws, then we can debate that instead of beating around the bush.

by the way, who did you vote for. You criticize my choices, what are yours? Or is this also another way to keep plausible deniability in your posts?

Carry on

[Markk]

Well, look at that, Markk is stumbling toward the answer I've been trying to spoon-feed him. We need to deport them because "they took our jobs!".

Gotta say, though, I’ve never actually seen an illegal immigrant take anyone else’s job.

What happens is that the folks at the top of the employment food chain offer jobs to desperate job seekers at below-market rates, then let go of higher-paid folks ... to maximize their profit.

This point has always been lost on a few of our board regulars.

So you are saying that these desperate illegal immigrants took the the place of citizens in the work force?

[Marcus]

LOl, my bad I thought you were being a smart ass and calling me professor. I apologize.

So what are you a professor of? My guess is it is not business.

You are an exceptionally bad guesser. The truth is far, far worse (in your mind) than you could ever, ever imagine, but, then, I don't get the sense economic policy and statistical analysis are your things, so I won't hold it against you.

[canpakes]

Gotta say, though, I’ve never actually seen an illegal immigrant take anyone else’s job.

What happens is that the folks at the top of the employment food chain offer jobs to desperate job seekers at below-market rates, then let go of higher-paid folks ... to maximize their profit.

This point has always been lost on a few of our board regulars.

So you are saying that these desperate illegal immigrants took the the place of citizens in the work force?

Did they? How did THAT happen? : D

[Gadianton]

if you would have asked I would have told you that is one reason

whoah. You mean, If I would have done all the thinking, you would agreed with me this is a reason, rather than coming up with the idea yourself? One of the reasons you may have a hard time coming up with things is that you are a Trump supporter, and nothing in his campaign tackled immigration in a sensible way. It's all based on lies and scapegoating, to the point you couldn't even think of the one reason staring at you in the face.

It cracks me up how you just make stuff up. I doubt if I would make more money, I am on salary.

In the short term you would absolutely make more money. I'm in a similar situation. To take your job, somebody must physically cross a border and work. To take mine, somebody must have an Internet connection, and so tech jobs can be shipped overseas. The H1Bs Elon is fighting MAGA over are a drop in the bucket compared to the jobs simply moved offshore.

For one of many reasons, to raise wages and help young hard working citizens earn a living wage and buy a home.

I see a similar problem. In tech, it's less and less common to see young workers. Between outsourcing, A.I., and cloud, I may be able to cross the finish line of my career as I collapse, but young people? Most of the entry level jobs that get you to where I am are shipped to India. MAGA is starting to wake up to this now that Musk has taken power. Too bad Trump's platform was a bunch of incoherent nonsense, he has no principles, and he's not going to do a damn thing other than chaos and strutting. MAGA = fools.

Are you backing off your human rights fail? lets see.

No, I accounted for the human rights issue in my post, if you would have read my post. Why am I even writing this when you aren't reading it? The only failure here is you.

Our immigration laws in regard to anyone coming here is to know who they are first, and to vet them.

Oh yeah? So you're going to mass deport millions of people because you don't know who they are? Reagan granted amnesty to millions. That meant they had to apply, get fingerprinted, and pass some basic checks. Problem solved, now we know who they are. Draconian laws assure that you'll never know who they are, if that's your primary concern.

[Markk]

So you are saying that these desperate illegal immigrants took the the place of citizens in the work force?

Did they? How did THAT happen? : D

By paying the cartel to get them across the border and getting fake ID and SSC, and then applying for a job. Then later as time progressed....they were snuck across the border by the cartel, given drivers licenses by the state, some get ebt cards or cal fresh, but they still needed fake a SSC...and free ACLU pamphlets on how not to get caught by ICE, and then apply for a job. Once hired they take a job that a legal citizen or legal immigrant could have.

Are some bosses greedy, most assuredly, are some just stuck in a system that demands they use cheap labor to compete, certainly.

So in the end did a illegal immigrant take the job that a legal immigrant or citizen could have had, or did have.....absolutely!

[Markk]

whoah. You mean, If I would have done all the thinking, you would agreed with me this is a reason, rather than coming up with the idea yourself?

No, if you would have just asked if I believed illegal immigrants take jobs from American citizens, I would have said yes they do. Go to the archives, I discussed this with Kevin for a few months, or more. His position was they help the economy, mine was the opposite. I think I may have even discussed it with you and cakes? Cakes is good at digging old threads up maybe he has the motivation to look it up.

Gad: One of the reasons you may have a hard time coming up with things is that you are a Trump supporter, and nothing in his campaign tackled immigration in a sensible way. It's all based on lies and scapegoating, to the point you couldn't even think of the one reason staring at you in the face

Do you realize how dumb that sounds?

I am the one articulating my positions, while you just rant and talk about Hitler.

Here will give you another chance, do you believe that we should rescind all immigration laws and let anyone come here without consequence and for any reason....and no vetting?

Without a retort about me or Trump, articulate your position and why you believe it?

[canpakes]

I was just kidding around with my question, but here we are.

By paying the cartel to get them across the border and getting fake ID and SSC, and then applying for a job. Then later as time progressed....they were snuck across the border by the cartel, given drivers licenses by the state, some get ebt cards or cal fresh, but they still needed fake a SSC...and free ACLU pamphlets on how not to get caught by ICE, and then apply for a job. Once hired they take a job that a legal citizen or legal immigrant could have.

Is that was caused their prospective employer to offer below-market wages?

Are some bosses greedy, most assuredly, are some just stuck in a system that demands they use cheap labor to compete, certainly.

Who is demanding that, and how did we get here, again?