The Fentanyl Crisis thread

[Markk]

I was just kidding around with my question, but here we are.

By paying the cartel to get them across the border and getting fake ID and SSC, and then applying for a job. Then later as time progressed....they were snuck across the border by the cartel, given drivers licenses by the state, some get ebt cards or cal fresh, but they still needed fake a SSC...and free ACLU pamphlets on how not to get caught by ICE, and then apply for a job. Once hired they take a job that a legal citizen or legal immigrant could have.

Is that was caused their prospective employer to offer below-market wages?

Are some bosses greedy, most assuredly, are some just stuck in a system that demands they use cheap labor to compete, certainly.

Who is demanding that, and how did we get here, again?

I appreciate your humor, which is why I like talking with you, I think we both keep this in the right perspective and have lives beyond this time trap.

But No, they accepting it did. And I don't know what you do for a living, but I never take what is offered by a new company. Nor when i buy a car do I pay sticker price. I get it is more money they may have ever dreamed of making, but they will soon find out it won't go too far here.

Yes owners many owners are greedy. But the bottom line is people here illegally are taking American jobs. Shall we follow the law and remove those here illegally, or shall we punish business owners for being greedy or necessary things to say in business? Or just let people come here illegally and take our jobs? Which is it.

Cakes
Who is demanding that, and how did we get here, again?

I am not sure I understand you question, can you rephrase please?

If I understand you correctly, we have always been 'here." We are a nation of capitalists.

[Gadianton]

No, if you would have just asked if I believed illegal immigrants take jobs from American citizens, I would have said yes they do

Exactly what I'm saying. If *I* would have brought up something actually relevant, you'd have seen the truth of it. But nothing stopped you from bringing it up yourself, but you were tied to Trump talking points. (just to be clear, my view is you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, and you'll never fix our economy's problem by deporting illegals. But it's a coherent point deserving consideration. It's not fallacious on its face, as all your other points have been.)

Go to the archives, I discussed this with Kevin for a few months, or more. His position was they help the economy

I think Kevin is right that they do help the economy. But how do they effect the distribution of wealth in the long run? See, the real vexing issue of our economy is wealth distribution right now. Billionaires have invested a lot of money into infotainment outlets like Fox to keep stupid people agitated about foreigners and trans athletes.

It's one thing to have a high GDP, it's another how that is distributed. This is Bernie's platform and he's right, in principle. Trump has everyone looking the other way while he pushes inequality to the next level.

Do you realize how dumb that sounds?

It couldn't possibly sound dumber than Trump talking about immigration. How about you post a clip of Trump talking about immigration where he sounds smarter than I do?

Here will give you another chance, do you believe that we should rescind all immigration laws and let anyone come here without consequence and for any reason....and no vetting?

I can't answer that without knowing the general direction the country wants to take. If you want a meritocracy like Ajax, if you want to destroy any and all social benefits and people survive red in claw and tooth, and you believe in raw capitalism and that the free market creates the most wealth, then we should have open borders. There is nothing special about a border from an economics perspective such that a free market can't optimize border flow without government regulations. A hardcore Bush era capitalist like Peter Zeihan is your guy if you want to listen to someone argue for open borders.

However, if you are a liberal who prizes social welfare; you want jobs for citizens and you want socialized healthcare and retirement. If you're looking at countries like Denmark or Sweden or Canada and thinking it might not be a bad model for us, then once you find the best country for social benefits, do a search on their immigration policy and it's probably totally draconian for immigration. Social benefits cost money. Even as a US citizen with some cash, try immigrating to some of these EU countries.

[Marcus]

. ..But the bottom line is people here illegally are taking American jobs. Shall we follow the law and remove those here illegally, or shall we punish business owners for being greedy or necessary things to say in business? Or just let people come here illegally and take our jobs? Which is it.

It's not an either/or. We know who is offering jobs, if they are penalized sufficiently, the job offers will stop, and people will stop coming for jobs. That's the most efficient way to stop this.

Are you ready to do your part to keep American jobs for Americans?

Seriously though, your language about this is beyond inappropriate. You justify law breaking in the name of profit, and want to penalize everyone except for those in control. It's shameful.

[Gadianton]

It's not an either/or. We know who is offering jobs, if they are penalized sufficiently, the job offers will stop, and people will stop coming for jobs. That's the most efficient way to stop this.

Absolutely. Put Markk's boss in jail.

[Markk]

It's not an either/or. We know who is offering jobs, if they are penalized sufficiently, the job offers will stop, and people will stop coming for jobs. That's the most efficient way to stop this.

Absolutely. Put Markk's boss in jail.

Where do you work or where did you work, what do/did you do for a living? Does your supermarket sell Strawberries, or chicken? do you buy either? Shall we throw the super markets CEO's in jail, and you for buying food there?

All you do is criticize others while not exposing yourself . What do/did you do for a living. Let me guess....what ever it was you never had to fill a profit vs loss report to justify your position? Am I right? My guess is you milked your way through some mundane government or university job, hating everyday going to work, hating others who elevated above you because they actually worked harder than you, and have noting to show for it, in regard to accomplishments. My guess is this site is your existence, and you have no life beyond it. How close am I?

Gad who did you vote for? Did you tell me yet? If you did I missed it.

And yes they should fine my boss and put him in jail if and when they start cleaning this mess up and give them warnings to stop.

What do/did you do for a living?

I know plausible deniability is your MO, but hopefully you will grow some nads and articulate your positions instead of just talking about Hitler.

Love ya

[Markk]

. ..But the bottom line is people here illegally are taking American jobs. Shall we follow the law and remove those here illegally, or shall we punish business owners for being greedy or necessary things to say in business? Or just let people come here illegally and take our jobs? Which is it.

It's not an either/or. We know who is offering jobs, if they are penalized sufficiently, the job offers will stop, and people will stop coming for jobs. That's the most efficient way to stop this.

Are you ready to do your part to keep American jobs for Americans?

Seriously though, your language about this is beyond inappropriate. You justify law breaking in the name of profit, and want to penalize everyone except for those in control. It's shameful.

Okay, then lest do so....lets start at the top, do you agree?

Yes I am ready to do my share, which is why I voted for Trump. I honestly hope he cleans up the mess that he inherited.

Do you work at a private or state university? What subject do you teach?

[Gunnar]

Yes I am ready to do my share, which is why I voted for Trump. I honestly hope he cleans up the mess that he inherited.

It is the mess that he is now creating and making worse day by day that he should be obligated to clean up!

[Marcus]

Absolutely. Put Markk's boss in jail.

Where do you work or where did you work, what do/did you do for a living? Does your supermarket sell Strawberries, or chicken? do you buy either? Shall we throw the super markets CEO's in jail, and you for buying food there?

All you do is criticize others while not exposing yourself . What do/did you do for a living. Let me guess....what ever it was you never had to fill a profit vs loss report to justify your position? Am I right? My guess is you milked your way through some mundane government or university job, hating everyday going to work, hating others who elevated above you because they actually worked harder than you, and have noting to show for it, in regard to accomplishments. My guess is this site is your existence, and you have no life beyond it. How close am I?

Wow. For someone who constantly complains about ad homs and straw men, that's quite extraordinary.

Love ya

Oh sure. We can tell.

[Marcus]

It's not an either/or. We know who is offering jobs, if they are penalized sufficiently, the job offers will stop, and people will stop coming for jobs. That's the most efficient way to stop this.

Are you ready to do your part to keep American jobs for Americans?

Seriously though, your language about this is beyond inappropriate. You justify law breaking in the name of profit, and want to penalize everyone except for those in control. It's shameful.

Okay, then lest do so....lets start at the top, do you agree?

No, I think you should do what you can at your level. You seem to feel very strongly about this issue, as evidenced by your posts, so you could start by turning in your company for hiring undocumented workers.

[Gadianton]

Does your supermarket sell Strawberries, or chicken? do you buy either? Shall we throw the super markets CEO's in jail, and you for buying food there?

Now you're starting to think. You acknowledge that the "problem" is completely embedded in our way of life. You feel like CEOs are victims of competition and therefore don't need to follow the law. Hiring illegals is subject to fines and even prison time. Are you willing to give your boss, not to mention your hypocritical president 10 years of prison for hiring illegals for his hotels and casinos? Bosses get out of it because either the law isn't enforced or they say that they didn't know. Of course they know, they are lying. You seem to know who all the illegals are at your place of work -- I'm sure your boss does too. "Your honor, I didn't know she was a prostitute! And I wasn't paying, that money just fell out of my wallet and I tried to catch it, but fumbled and it fell into her hands! She stole from me as well, throw the book at her, not me!"

You point out we're all part of the problem so we shouldn't be too hard on your boss. But there is no end to the punishment you're willing to inflict on the workers for a "crime" we're all complicit to. You are ready to fill Guantanamo bay up with workers who in many cases crossed the border a single time while your boss is like a 100-1000x border crosser. In your eyes, he's the victim.

Where do you think all this started Markk, with supply or demand? Do you think the cheapest labor the US has ever brought in, African slaves, rowed here from Africa looking for work and forced employers to use them? Once the first plantation put slaves in the fields, every other plantation had the same problem your boss does: they can be outcompeted or they can use slaves themselves. Boy, those slaves sure ruined it for everybody! But guess what? Somehow, we figured out a way to prohibit slavery, and enforce the law, and so it actually stopped. And the fix happened at the demand level, with the employers.

Not only will you cause tremendous hardship and pain to the workers you wish to mass deport, you will fail in your goal in two other ways. 1) A true mass deportation along with other measures that prevent re-hiring will crash the economy. What will recovery look like? No idea. 2) The showmanship deportations that are the most likely the result will end in other illegals crossing the border and back-filling the lost jobs.

You are right that it is a deeply embedded "problem", but your matter of addressing it will never work and is once again, scapegoating. You put all the blame on the most vulnerable in the system and unleash your fury on them. Shame on you.