The Fentanyl Crisis thread

[Markk]

Does your supermarket sell Strawberries, or chicken? do you buy either? Shall we throw the super markets CEO's in jail, and you for buying food there?

Now you're starting to think. You acknowledge that the "problem" is completely embedded in our way of life.

Lol really? Isn't that what I said using construction as a model. Lol Gad this has just gone full circle. My opinion is Illegal immigration has gotten so out of hand that it is affecting the citizenship and our way of life. Your opinion, correct me if I am wrong, is that it is embedded too deep to do anything about, and is strengthening our communities and nation (as Kevin championed and you agreed).

So we are down to solutions which I have been trying get you and other to articulate.

What is your solution Gad, articulate your plan from the now, to the future, in regard to illegal immigration.

[canpakes]

Now you're starting to think. You acknowledge that the "problem" is completely embedded in our way of life.

Lol really? Isn't that what I said using construction as a model. Lol Gad this has just gone full circle. My opinion is Illegal immigration has gotten so out of hand that it is affecting the citizenship and our way of life. Your opinion, correct me if I am wrong, is that it is embedded too deep to do anything about, and is strengthening our communities and nation (as Kevin championed and you agreed).

So we are down to solutions which I have been trying get you and other to articulate.

What is your solution Gad, articulate your plan from the now, to the future, in regard to illegal immigration.

Markk, if you agree that we should be doing ‘everything we can’ to solve the issue, and that the demand side (business) greatly exacerbates the issue by undercutting pay rates and hiring non-citizens by the millions, then what are some of the solutions for tackling that part of the problem?

Have you seen anything posted by the new Administration that addresses this?

[Markk]

Okay, then lest do so....lets start at the top, do you agree?

No, I think you should do what you can at your level. You seem to feel very strongly about this issue, as evidenced by your posts, so you could start by turning in your company for hiring undocumented workers.

When you hire someone you can't physically ask them if the are illegal, but you can ask if they are here legally on their application. They fill out a I-9, and present two forms of ID. They can present a DL, or foreign ID and say a temp or permanent work card. They way they get around it is that these cards are forged and marketed by the cartels. The company, I currently work for, and past companies, and most other company's that are legit follow the rules and do nothing illegal. The illegal ones are hired because they have fake id's. There is a large turnover in workers in SoCA, and when payroll services find a issue, such as a fake SSN....then they are let go and another hired, hopefully with legal ID. And the one let go goes to another company. I here this is really common in landscaping.


See my last post to Gad. we are down to solutions, what is your solution to the immigration epidemic, crisis, influx, or what ever you choose to call it?

https://thefederalnewswire.com/stories/ ... gal-aliens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTNzIEbybi4

[Marcus]

No, I think you should do what you can at your level. You seem to feel very strongly about this issue, as evidenced by your posts, so you could start by turning in your company for hiring undocumented workers.

...The company, I currently work for, and past companies, and most other company's that are legit follow the rules and do nothing illegal...

Also you:

Labor is a different story. If the project is estimated that it will take 30 carpenters for 6 months, and a legit contractor has to pay 45 dollars an hour.... vs a company that uses primarily illegal carpenters that get 23 dollars an hour, they simply will not win the awarding of the project. Compound that with most all the other trades, there is just no way to compete.

....would a slaughter and packing house that hires legal citizens demanding 20% or more an hour plus benefits win the bin over one that uses illegal labor for 20% less and no benefits? No.

You can deny this is how it works all you want, but you are missing the reality of what is going on.

The reality is, you have asserted that you know undocumented workers are hired and there is no other way to do it. To hide behind a technicality now is nothing more than a facile excuse to protect those committing the crimes.

[Markk]

Lol really? Isn't that what I said using construction as a model. Lol Gad this has just gone full circle. My opinion is Illegal immigration has gotten so out of hand that it is affecting the citizenship and our way of life. Your opinion, correct me if I am wrong, is that it is embedded too deep to do anything about, and is strengthening our communities and nation (as Kevin championed and you agreed).

So we are down to solutions which I have been trying get you and other to articulate.

What is your solution Gad, articulate your plan from the now, to the future, in regard to illegal immigration.

Markk, if you agree that we should be doing ‘everything we can’ to solve the issue, and that the demand side (business) greatly exacerbates the issue by undercutting pay rates and hiring non-citizens by the millions, then what are some of the solutions for tackling that part of the problem?

Have you seen anything posted by the new Administration that addresses this?

Uphold the immigration laws. Deport all those that are illegal. Stop the cartel human trafficking at the borders. Help those, and vet those, that want to come here and be productive citizens following the process to become citizens. Lol.... Do you watch the news?

Once the work force is solidified, there will be a natural rise in wages. Like there is in tech. there will be up's and downs depending on supply and demand and the economy. Am I wrong here?

Have I seen anything specific by the new administration, no, and I haven't looked. Have you? I'll look if you want me to. He has only been in office a month.

The conversation has pretty much come down to solutions, so beyond your past 30 second solution, what is your thought out solution, which includes what we do with current immigration laws, and what to do with the borders....i.e. open per the definition below?

An open border is a border that enables free movement of people (and often of goods) between jurisdictions with no restrictions on movement and is lacking substantive border control. A border may be an open border due to intentional legislation allowing free movement of people across the border. In other words governmental border policy.

[canpakes]

Markk, if you agree that we should be doing ‘everything we can’ to solve the issue, and that the demand side (business) greatly exacerbates the issue by undercutting pay rates and hiring non-citizens by the millions, then what are some of the solutions for tackling that part of the problem?

Have you seen anything posted by the new Administration that addresses this?

Uphold the immigration laws. Deport all those that are illegal. Stop the cartel human trafficking at the borders. Help those, and vet those, that want to come here and be productive citizens following the process to become citizens. Lol.... Do you watch the news?

Once the work force is solidified, there will be a natural rise in wages. Like there is in tech. there will be up's and downs depending on supply and demand and the economy. Am I wrong here?

Have I seen anything specific by the new administration, no, and I haven't looked. Have you? I'll look if you want me to. He has only been in office a month.

The conversation has pretty much come down to solutions, so beyond your past 30 second solution, what is your thought out solution, which includes what we do with current immigration laws, and what to do with the borders....i.e. open per the definition below?

An open border is a border that enables free movement of people (and often of goods) between jurisdictions with no restrictions on movement and is lacking substantive border control. A border may be an open border due to intentional legislation allowing free movement of people across the border. In other words governmental border policy.

How about businesses that hire non-citizens? I don’t see anything there addressing that.

[Gadianton]

Yes, using construction as a model is you thinking. Using Fentanyl as a model is you blindly following your maniacal political luminaries. This is an improvement.

It took a civil war to end slave ownership. Ending illegal immigration won't happen without significantly penalizing employers and even then I'm not sure. Whether illegal immigration for work even counts as a problem depends on whether you a) believe in free markets or b) believe in socialism. If you wish to announce MAGA as socialist, then I agree with you in principle that illegal immigration could be a problem. Actually, we need be careful about terminology as we're taking the cart before the horse. Immigration is a concern for a social-welfare state. Care must be taken to ensure that the benefit of the immigrants don't outweigh the cost of providing them with the lavish social benefits citizens enjoy. This is where, as central planners, we sit down and calculate how many immigrants we should let in and then draw a line. On purpose, we are causing shortages. Employers will want cheap labor, and cheap labor will want employers, and the law must brutally stop supply and demand from meeting, with the greater harshness on the demand side (employers).

One of the effects of making immigration illegal in the first place is the resulting black markets. Many of the bad things that go along with illegal immigration happen simply because it was made illegal, and the tremendous forces of supply and demand are pulling towards each other. Think about prohibition.

An open border is an extension of the self-regulating market that Adam Smith described. I believe in a radical version of free-markets called rational expectations. In that theory, it is exceptionally difficult to beat market forces by policy prescriptions. Cheap labor undercutting good gigs by workers is a reality of a functioning free market. Innovation should ensure other work opportunities. By giving your workers higher wages, the cost to build a house goes up, and your workers still won't be able to afford a house. The US was built on completely open and cut-throat immigration and competition. To say a policy maker knows exactly where to draw the line in history and say -- whoah! enough is enough, no more immigrants! is absurd.

The border is open in the other direction. More Americans are moving to Mexico than Mexicans are moving to America. If America is too expensive, there are options here. Catastrophic inflation and the problem with housing is not an easy problem to untangle. I've been dipping my toes into the problem, but I don't have any great explanation nor easy fixes. I can guarantee you that Donald Trump has no freaking clue, and all your outrage policies will just make things worse in the short-run and long-run for the average American. Perhaps they will deserve it for trying to fix their problems by inhumane policies like "mass deportations".

[Markk]

...The company, I currently work for, and past companies, and most other company's that are legit follow the rules and do nothing illegal...

Also you:

Labor is a different story. If the project is estimated that it will take 30 carpenters for 6 months, and a legit contractor has to pay 45 dollars an hour.... vs a company that uses primarily illegal carpenters that get 23 dollars an hour, they simply will not win the awarding of the project. Compound that with most all the other trades, there is just no way to compete.

....would a slaughter and packing house that hires legal citizens demanding 20% or more an hour plus benefits win the bin over one that uses illegal labor for 20% less and no benefits? No.

You can deny this is how it works all you want, but you are missing the reality of what is going on.

The reality is, you have asserted that you know undocumented workers are hired and there is no other way to do it. To hide behind a technicality now is nothing more than a facile excuse to protect those committing the crimes.

LOL, and you have no idea who is illegal or not? Where do you live Marcus? I gave you a link to send if you "suspect" someone as being illegal.

I have a few friend I know for sure that were or are illegal, good people, and I would never turn them in, so call me a hypocrite, I concede that. I did help one, one of my best friends, after he was arrested and detained in a camp in Arizona, get a lawyer (5k) and he now has a green card after a long process.

As far as hiding behind there is an organized network of cartels, trafficking humans and supplying them with fake documents to buck the system, at thousands and thousand of dollars, is just you sticking your head in the sand.

What is your solution Marcus? Or, just concede your hypocrisy here. It is easy to criticize others for their solutions to problems, and hypocrisy to not counter with your solution to that same issue. I am sure that is also some sort of fallacy.

Lol...I love google A.I., I just googled if it was a fallacy and it came back with:

When someone criticizes your solution to a problem without offering their own opinion or alternative solution, this is often considered a logical fallacy called "nitpicking" or a form of "ignoratio elenchi" (missing the point), as they are focusing on flaws in your proposal without providing a constructive alternative to address the issue at hand.

Off topic but as I try to wrap my head around just what A.I. is and what it will mean and do with quantum computing, I don't know if it is good or bad....but so far I like it, I hope I don't regret saying that.

What is your solution Marcus?

[Bret Ripley]

They fill out a I-9, and present two forms of ID. They can present a DL, or foreign ID and say a temp or permanent work card. They way they get around it is that these cards are forged and marketed by the cartels.

Forged documents don't really work very well if the employer processes I-9s through E-Verify, which is required for federal contractors (and is also required by some states).

[Granted, the E-Verify system was partially exploitable during COVID because the government couldn't keep up with processing indeterminate results, so workers with document problems could (for example) go to their local Social Security Administration office and begin the process of resolving their document issue; SSA kept extending the deadline for workers to supply evidence because they didn't have the workers to process these cases. In the meanwhile, these workers could remain employed.]

[canpakes]

They fill out a I-9, and present two forms of ID. They can present a DL, or foreign ID and say a temp or permanent work card. They way they get around it is that these cards are forged and marketed by the cartels.

Forged documents don't really work very well if the employer processes I-9s through E-Verify, which is required for federal contractors (and is also required by some states).

Bogus social security cards are even incredibly easy to identify by feel alone, as they won’t be created using an intaglio press.