Calling it "Politically Motivated"

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Markk
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Re: Calling it "Politically Motivated"

Post by Markk »

Gunnar: We would have handled the COVID pandemic much better than it was handled during Trump's administration. Our country has only about 5% of the world's population and more that 20% of the deaths from it. What better evidence can you have that the Trump handled the pandemic worse than almost any other national leader on earth? Trump had stupidly dismantled the pandemic response team that Obama had set up, that would have been very helpful in combatting the pandemic and had already been very effective in handling and averting the potential Ebola threat and others that we don't usually hear about because they were effectively averted.
What does that have to do with Powell, and the Scheme? Lets focus on the subject at hand. If we were to go back and forth on covid we could start with Fauci and how more Americans died under Biden than Trump. How little children were forced to wear masks, when they did no good. And a lot more. The NY Governor and nursing homes. There is enough blame to go around for the disaster that was created by covid, and how it was handled by both Trump and Biden I hope we can stay on topic with Whitehouse's speeches.

So can we agree, that if Clinton had won in 2016 the scenario would be in reverse and Whitehouse would not be preaching what he is preaching?

And can we agree, both parties use dark money as a means to an end to battle each other for political power?
Last edited by Markk on Wed Apr 16, 2025 11:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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canpakes
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Re: Calling it "Politically Motivated"

Post by canpakes »

Markk wrote:
Wed Apr 16, 2025 1:41 am
How little children were forced to wear masks, …
Considering how often and easily little children will dress up and wear masks for playtime and Halloween, I suspect that the biggest problem there was that their parents were tossing fits because of their own hangups regarding masks.

If only Trump had been in office at that time, so that he and Fox News could have told everyone to just put that flimsy little cloth mask over their mouth and nose, to buck up and be strong, and not be ‘Panicans’, like last week’s messaging during the market free falls. For America!, right?

Oh, wait. He was President then. But he was too busy trying to divide Americans over the issue.
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Re: Calling it "Politically Motivated"

Post by Markk »

Gunnar: Yes, the Republicans are indeed dirty here, much more so than the Democrats.
Again.... https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-e ... r-n1239830

In listening to your recommended video series, I am at #10.... so far Whitehouse has not been critical of the democrats use of super pacs and dark money. Zero, unless we count Powell as the author or the "scheme."

Here are two links to the right wing pac's since 2000, and the left wing pac from 2000....compare them, and then let me know why Whitehouse is singling out the right wing for using dark money?

https://www.opensecrets.org/political-a ... l/Q02/2000

https://www.opensecrets.org/political-a ... l/Q01/2000
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Re: Calling it "Politically Motivated"

Post by Gunnar »

Markk wrote:
Wed Apr 16, 2025 12:40 pm
Gunnar: Yes, the Republicans are indeed dirty here, much more so than the Democrats.
Again.... https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-e ... r-n1239830

In listening to your recommended video series, I am at #10.... so far Whitehouse has not been critical of the democrats use of super pacs and dark money. Zero, unless we count Powell as the author or the "scheme."

Here are two links to the right wing pac's since 2000, and the left wing pac from 2000....compare them, and then let me know why Whitehouse is singling out the right wing for using dark money?

https://www.opensecrets.org/political-a ... l/Q02/2000

https://www.opensecrets.org/political-a ... l/Q01/2000
If you have finished the whole series and have read the book, you either already know the answer to your above questions, or you have extremely poor or very selective comprehension skills. You should know, by now, if you continued through the series and have read the book that Whitehouse criticized Democrats other than Powell for the use of super pacs and dark money. He is unhappy with the fact that some Democrats, desperate to counter the wins Republicans achieved by dishonest use of dark money, have too often resorted to trying to mimic the same tactics that seemed to be winning for the Republicans.

Besides that, attempting to excuse Republicans for using such tactics by claiming some Democrats have also used them is both hypocritical and immature. It is like a 12-year-old attempting to escape punishment for a misdeed by claiming others have gotten away with doing the same thing. How would you react to one of your children trying to talk their way out of punishment in that way? You have disgraced yourself by merely trying to use that tactic.

One might also consider the motives for doing what they do. It is not the Democrats who are proposing gargantuan tax cuts for wealthiest of the wealthy at the expense of the poorest and most vulnerable Americans. It is not the Democrats who are advocating massive cuts in social security and Medicare. It is not the Democrats who are denying the scientifically established facts and probable consequences of human caused climate change. It is not the Democrats who are doing their darndest to suppress voting in minority districts. It is not the Democrats who are opposing any and all regulations intended to protect the health and safety of consumers and workers. It is not the Democrats who oppose any attempts to mitigate and prevent health and even life-threatening environmental pollution.

Do you believe that businesses should have no obligation whatsoever to minimize environmental pollution or ensure safe and healthy working conditions for their employees? If you think that, you are an unconscionable, immoral idiot! And if you think that is not one of the main aims of "The Scheme" that Whitehouse has meticulously documented in his book, you have not understood the book nor the compelling evidence supporting it.

Some examples: From Chapter 7 of the book page 65:
THE FRONT GROUP ARCHIPELAGO DESIGNED TO CAPTURE THE Court for dark money donors did not spring into existenceo out of thin air. It had a history. A bad one. Years ago, the tobacco industry set up front groups and "astroturf" organizations as the health dangers of smoking became more apparent. These groups did a lot of lying. By the 1960s, legal pressure on the tobacco companies culminated in a federal court determination that the tobacco companies "engaged in and overarching scheme to defraud smokers and potential smokers for more than 50 years." This shut down the tobacco fraud operation.

Put more colloquially, and less legalistically, over the course of more than 50 years. Defendents lied, misinterpreted, and deceived the American public, including smokers and the young people they avidly sought as "replacement smokers," about the devasting health effects of smoking and environmental tobacco smoke, they suppressed research, they destroyed documents, they manipulated the use of nicotine so as to increase and perpetuate addiction, they distorted the truth about low tar and light cigarettes so as to discourage smokers from quitting, and they abused the legal system in order to achieve their goal--to make more money with little, if any, regard for individual illness and suffering, soaring health costs, or the integrity of the legal system.
These same groups responsible for the above have now been enlisted by fossil fuel companies to promote similar doubts and misinformation climate change and environmental pollution, as explained by the rest of the chapter. Now, they are actually getting government subsidies for their effort as described on page 69!
These covert campaigns don't just help fossil fuel groups feed at the public spigot, they do lasting, drive-by damage. The tobacco and climate-denial "think tanks" first questioned the research showing that tobacco causes cancer and that climate change is a real and urgent threat. Then they went after individual scientists who spoke out about these truths, including my friend Michael Mann, whose work produced the "hockey stick" that shows the sudden spike in global warming in the twentieth century. Then they attacked the entire concept of science and expertise itself.
This is where we are now. Trump is attacking the entire concept of science and expertise by his attitudes towards climate change inspired by massive donations from fossil fuel companies and industrialists like the Koch Brothers and Elon Musk, and by his replacement of highly qualified scientists in HHS, EPA, NOAA, CDC, National Weather Service and other scientific agencies by bureaucratic hacks whose only qualification is extreme loyalty to Trump.
Last edited by Gunnar on Thu May 08, 2025 8:31 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Calling it "Politically Motivated"

Post by Kishkumen »

Besides that, attempting to excuse Republicans for using such tactics by claiming some Democrats have also used them is both hypocritical and immature. It is like a 12-year-old attempting to escape punishment for a misdeed by claiming others have gotten away with doing the same thing. How would you react to one of your children trying to talk their way out of punishment in that way? You have disgraced yourself by merely trying to use that tactic.
Bingo. And so in keeping with the maturity level of his dear leader. Unfortunately, Markk has never been distinguished by his maturity and sophistication. I doubt this criticism will land with him, since he has few options to go to.

In any case, excellent post.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
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Re: Calling it "Politically Motivated"

Post by Gunnar »

Kishkumen wrote:
Thu May 08, 2025 8:09 pm
Besides that, attempting to excuse Republicans for using such tactics by claiming some Democrats have also used them is both hypocritical and immature. It is like a 12-year-old attempting to escape punishment for a misdeed by claiming others have gotten away with doing the same thing. How would you react to one of your children trying to talk their way out of punishment in that way? You have disgraced yourself by merely trying to use that tactic.
Bingo. And so in keeping with the maturity level of his dear leader. Unfortunately, Markk has never been distinguished by his maturity and sophistication. I doubt this criticism will land with him, since he has few options to go to.

In any case, excellent post.
I wouldn't say never. His Art thread was excellent! I enjoyed it thoroughly!

ETA: by the way, Kish, have you had the opportunity to read Whitehouse's book or gone through his The Scheme video series? His series on climate change is also excellent.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Calling it "Politically Motivated"

Post by Kishkumen »

Gunnar wrote:
Thu May 08, 2025 8:34 pm
I wouldn't say never. His Art thread was excellent! I enjoyed it thoroughly!
Okay, okay. You've got me there.
ETA: by the way, Kish, have you had the opportunity to read Whitehouse's book or gone through his The Scheme video series? His series on climate change is also excellent.
Sadly, no. I have been impressed by his speeches, however! Thanks for the reminder on The Scheme! I will have a first look tonight!
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
Markk
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Re: Calling it "Politically Motivated"

Post by Markk »

Gunnar wrote:
Thu May 08, 2025 8:02 pm
Markk wrote:
Wed Apr 16, 2025 12:40 pm
Again.... https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-e ... r-n1239830

In listening to your recommended video series, I am at #10.... so far Whitehouse has not been critical of the democrats use of super pacs and dark money. Zero, unless we count Powell as the author or the "scheme."

Here are two links to the right wing pac's since 2000, and the left wing pac from 2000....compare them, and then let me know why Whitehouse is singling out the right wing for using dark money?

https://www.opensecrets.org/political-a ... l/Q02/2000

https://www.opensecrets.org/political-a ... l/Q01/2000
If you have finished the whole series and have read the book, you either already know the answer to your above questions, or you have extremely poor or very selective comprehension skills. You should know, by now, if you continued through the series and have read the book that Whitehouse criticized Democrats other than Powell for the use of super pacs and dark money. He is unhappy with the fact that some Democrats, desperate to counter the wins Republicans achieved by dishonest use of dark money, have too often resorted to trying to mimic the same tactics that seemed to be winning for the Republicans.

Besides that, attempting to excuse Republicans for using such tactics by claiming some Democrats have also used them is both hypocritical and immature. It is like a 12-year-old attempting to escape punishment for a misdeed by claiming others have gotten away with doing the same thing. How would you react to one of your children trying to talk their way out of punishment in that way? You have disgraced yourself by merely trying to use that tactic.

One might also consider the motives for doing what they do. It is not the Democrats who are proposing gargantuan tax cuts for wealthiest of the wealthy at the expense of the poorest and most vulnerable Americans. It is not the Democrats who are advocating massive cuts in social security and Medicare. It is not the Democrats who are denying the scientifically established facts and probable consequences of human caused climate change. It is not the Democrats who are doing their darndest to suppress voting in minority districts. It is not the Democrats who are opposing any and all regulations intended to protect the health and safety of consumers and workers. It is not the Democrats who oppose any attempts to mitigate and prevent health and even life-threatening environmental pollution.

Do you believe that businesses should have no obligation whatsoever to minimize environmental pollution or ensure safe and healthy working conditions for their employees? If you think that, you are an unconscionable, immoral idiot! And if you think that is not one of the main aims of "The Scheme" that Whitehouse has meticulously documented in his book, you have not understood the book nor the compelling evidence supporting it.

Some examples: From Chapter 7 of the book page 65:
THE FRONT GROUP ARCHIPELAGO DESIGNED TO CAPTURE THE Court for dark money donors did not spring into existenceo out of thin air. It had a history. A bad one. Years ago, the tobacco industry set up front groups and "astroturf" organizations as the health dangers of smoking became more apparent. These groups did a lot of lying. By the 1960s, legal pressure on the tobacco companies culminated in a federal court determination that the tobacco companies "engaged in and overarching scheme to defraud smokers and potential smokers for more than 50 years." This shut down the tobacco fraud operation.

Put more colloquially, and less legalistically, over the course of more than 50 years. Defendents lied, misinterpreted, and deceived the American public, including smokers and the young people they avidly sought as "replacement smokers," about the devasting health effects of smoking and environmental tobacco smoke, they suppressed research, they destroyed documents, they manipulated the use of nicotine so as to increase and perpetuate addiction, they distorted the truth about low tar and light cigarettes so as to discourage smokers from quitting, and they abused the legal system in order to achieve their goal--to make more money with little, if any, regard for individual illness and suffering, soaring health costs, or the integrity of the legal system.
These same groups responsible for the above have now been enlisted by fossil fuel companies to promote similar doubts and misinformation climate change and environmental pollution, as explained by the rest of the chapter. Now, they are actually getting government subsidies for their effort as described on page 69!
These covert campaigns don't just help fossil fuel groups feed at the public spigot, they do lasting, drive-by damage. The tobacco and climate-denial "think tanks" first questioned the research showing that tobacco causes cancer and that climate change is a real and urgent threat. Then they went after individual scientists who spoke out about these truths, including my friend Michael Mann, whose work produced the "hockey stick" that shows the sudden spike in global warming in the twentieth century. Then they attacked the entire concept of science and expertise itself.
This is where we are now. Trump is attacking the entire concept of science and expertise by his attitudes towards climate change inspired by massive donations from fossil fuel companies and industrialists like the Koch Brothers and Elon Musk, and by his replacement of highly qualified scientists in HHS, EPA, NOAA, CDC, National Weather Service and other scientific agencies by bureaucratic hacks whose only qualification is extreme loyalty to Trump.
Great job! And I apologize for thinking you were not going to continue anymore with the conversation. No I stopped listing to the series at 10. I'll start listening to it again during the week as I commute, and I'll download the book from amazon to Kindle as soon as I post this. I'll start reading it as time permits. I probably post as I go read through it.

Thanks
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Re: Calling it "Politically Motivated"

Post by Gunnar »

Markk wrote:
Sat May 10, 2025 12:35 pm
Great job! And I apologize for thinking you were not going to continue anymore with the conversation. No I stopped listing to the series at 10. I'll start listening to it again during the week as I commute, and I'll download the book from amazon to Kindle as soon as I post this. I'll start reading it as time permits. I probably post as I go read through it.

Thanks
Thanks to you too, Markk, and I apologize for taking so long to continue with this discussion. I have been distracted by other things in my personal life and by being moved to respond to other issues raised on this board. I am glad to see that you are going to continue going through Whitehouse's The Scheme video series and read his book. I expect you will find it to be quite a valuable eye-opener. And don't just listen to the series. You will miss much of the impact of it if you don't also see his visual presentations. I know it will take a lot of time to do that, and I don't expect you to do it all at once with no breaks, like I did. I encourage you to take whatever time it takes to comfortably get through them all. I appreciate that you have an important life other than just watching videos on the internet.

And thanks again for your excellent Art Thread! I found it to be one of the most interesting and enjoyable threads I have yet seen on this board!
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
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Re: Calling it "Politically Motivated"

Post by Markk »

Thanks,

I read the first four chapters in the book last night. His opening assertion that we are going to explore is that this is an organized scheme; he closes the fourth chapter with the following:
They had a motive; they had a plan; and now they had a man on the Court.

Whitehouse, Sheldon. The Scheme: How the Right Wing Used Dark Money to Capture the Supreme Court (p. 43). The New Press. Kindle Edition.
Before we get directly into these three specific items, I think we need to take a look at the real heart of W-H's assertion; the "secret" memo that Powell wrote, as a Lawyer, to the US Chamber of Commence, and just who Lewis Powell was. I have a few questions:
  1. Have you read the Memo? W-H called this memo a "secret Manifesto" in chapter 3, do you believe that is a fair description of the memo, after reading the memo?
  2. What party did Powell belong to. So far in my reading, and in W-H's short biography, he has not mentioned Powell's political party affiliation. He makes a claim as I pasted above, they (republicans) have their man in the court.
  3. When a person asks an attorney to write them a memo, and that memo is leaked, is the word secret vs private more appropriate? The reason I ask, is this will become evident as we move forward, and if you have read the Memo, and more importantly the reason the memo was written, my question will make more sense.
  4. Have you ever heard of Mr. Eugene B. Sydnor, Jr.? Who was he and what party was he affiliated with?
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