As for whether altruism exists or not; I think it does. I completely understand the view that everything we do whether conscious or not is self serving. I would lean towards the view that something can be both self serving and serve another, and that this can be considered altruistic whereas when something is self serving but harms another it is pride.
I agree. Sort of. The difference is whether or not it’s the “serving others” bit that’s the byproduct.
If you take the Mormon version of Jesus - the theology goes that two brothers put themselves forward with their plans for how to operate “Project Earthly Existence”. Satan is portrayed as being selfishly wanting all the glory for the success of the plan, Jesus is portrayed as “altruistically” giving all the glory for the success of the plan to God. Interestingly, God decided to go with the plan that ensured He would get all the glory for Himself. Which is, when you think about it, portraying God as self serving.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
As for whether altruism exists or not; I think it does. I completely understand the view that everything we do whether conscious or not is self serving. I would lean towards the view that something can be both self serving and serve another, and that this can be considered altruistic whereas when something is self serving but harms another it is pride.
I agree. Sort of. The difference is whether or not it’s the “serving others” bit that’s the byproduct.
If you take the Mormon version of Jesus - the theology goes that two brothers put themselves forward with their plans for how to operate “Project Earthly Existence”. Satan is portrayed as being selfishly wanting all the glory for the success of the plan, Jesus is portrayed as “altruistically” giving all the glory for the success of the plan to God. Interestingly, God decided to go with the plan that ensured He would get all the glory for Himself. Which is, when you think about it, portraying God as self serving.
Of course, this portayal of god is consistent with the Old Testament angry, jealous, and picky god, who eventually murders almost all of his creation for not being as obedient and worshipful as he ordered them to be.
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I agree. Sort of. The difference is whether or not it’s the “serving others” bit that’s the byproduct.
If you take the Mormon version of Jesus - the theology goes that two brothers put themselves forward with their plans for how to operate “Project Earthly Existence”. Satan is portrayed as being selfishly wanting all the glory for the success of the plan, Jesus is portrayed as “altruistically” giving all the glory for the success of the plan to God. Interestingly, God decided to go with the plan that ensured He would get all the glory for Himself. Which is, when you think about it, portraying God as self serving.
Of course, this portayal of god is consistent with the Old Testament angry, jealous, and picky god, who eventually murders almost all of his creation for not being as obedient and worshipful as he ordered them to be.
It would have been easier to chalk that up to mythology, that the flood story is just cultural memory of Younger Dryas flooding, if not for the fact that it is reaffirmed in the Book of Moses. Much easier to convince someone that the Bible, already believed to be translated incorrectly, is wrong than the Pearl of Great Price.
I’m not sure what to think about considering the Father as selfish in the premortal council.
“The ego is not master in its own house.” - Sigmund Freud
venturing as altruism would break the emotive connection for sure. But altruism is a foreign concept to Mormons and possibly religion in general; it's a die-hard secularist concept. Kant's duty ethics and also Divine command are similar, but never fully face the reality of doing the right thing and consequences and rewards simply don't factor in. There's always a sly means of slipping in the reward.
As I've said, a Mormon can love others emotively or "try" to love them out of duty and the feelings and rewards follow later. Mormonism at best is a system of delayed gratification. There is no such thing as sacrifice, only investment. The returns may be delayed, but the wait is repaid with interest.
We can't take farmers and take all their people and send them back because they don't have maybe what they're supposed to have. They get rid of some of the people who have been there for 25 years and they work great and then you throw them out and they're replaced by criminals.
As for whether altruism exists or not; I think it does. I completely understand the view that everything we do whether conscious or not is self serving. I would lean towards the view that something can be both self serving and serve another, and that this can be considered altruistic whereas when something is self serving but harms another it is pride.
I agree. Sort of. The difference is whether or not it’s the “serving others” bit that’s the byproduct.
If you take the Mormon version of Jesus - the theology goes that two brothers put themselves forward with their plans for how to operate “Project Earthly Existence”. Satan is portrayed as being selfishly wanting all the glory for the success of the plan, Jesus is portrayed as “altruistically” giving all the glory for the success of the plan to God. Interestingly, God decided to go with the plan that ensured He would get all the glory for Himself. Which is, when you think about it, portraying God as self serving.
I do not think I am misremembering but I remember the LDS idea here a bit differently. I thought the idea was that free agency was necessary for us all to reach our best potential and Satan's plan would limit that in favor of his own power. God's preference was in favor of all of the rest of us reaching our best potential. Of course the best outcome for all of rebounds to God's glory. There is not glory for God in failure of God's creation or our being blocked from growing to our potential. Our best outcome is God's glory.
....
Perhaps this puzzle is related to the perversion of the idea of love wherein an action for another is understood as should be unrelated to one's own good when in reality the good of another is naturally interconnect to one's own good.
I agree. Sort of. The difference is whether or not it’s the “serving others” bit that’s the byproduct.
If you take the Mormon version of Jesus - the theology goes that two brothers put themselves forward with their plans for how to operate “Project Earthly Existence”. Satan is portrayed as being selfishly wanting all the glory for the success of the plan, Jesus is portrayed as “altruistically” giving all the glory for the success of the plan to God. Interestingly, God decided to go with the plan that ensured He would get all the glory for Himself. Which is, when you think about it, portraying God as self serving.
I do not think I am misremembering but I remember the LDS idea here a bit differently. I thought the idea was that free agency was necessary for us all to reach our best potential and Satan's plan would limit that in favor of his own power. God's preference was in favor of all of the rest of us reaching our best potential. Of course the best outcome for all of rebounds to God's glory. There is not glory for God in failure of God's creation or our being blocked from growing to our potential. Our best outcome is God's glory.
....
Perhaps this puzzle is related to the perversion of the idea of love wherein an action for another is understood as should be unrelated to one's own good when in reality the good of another is naturally interconnect to one's own good.
I thought the idea was that free agency was necessary for us all to reach our best potential and Satan's plan would limit that in favor of his own power. God's preference was in favor of all of the rest of us reaching our best potential.
Regards,
MG
I would prefer to kick that fairy story of Mormon men aside for a minute, and assert that people can do genuine good without the thought of a delayed heavenly reward.
I thought the idea was that free agency was necessary for us all to reach our best potential and Satan's plan would limit that in favor of his own power. God's preference was in favor of all of the rest of us reaching our best potential.
Regards,
MG
I would prefer to kick that fairy story of Mormon men aside for a minute, and assert that people can do genuine good without the thought of a delayed heavenly reward.
The purpose of life, at least an integral part, for ALL of God's children is to either choose to do "genuine good". As we EACH go day to day, believer and non believer alike, our purpose/goal should/ought to be to do genuine good.
I serve with a couple of non profits. I'm not doing what I do when I serve to get brownie points in heaven. I am doing it because I have a desire to do something good in the world and not be totally self centered. Same with my family. I seek to do genuine good simply because that's what family does. They help/serve/love one another.
Now, to add the extra dimension to it at the end of the day, so to speak, of serving God by serving our fellow men...is not a sin. We have one thing in common with ALL our brothers and sisters in the world. The need/desire to do genuine good, hopefully without a constant concern whether or not someone is watching or that we get rewarded beyond a "thanks!".
You seem to be the kind of person that does genuine good. I think that's awesome.
I agree. Sort of. The difference is whether or not it’s the “serving others” bit that’s the byproduct.
If you take the Mormon version of Jesus - the theology goes that two brothers put themselves forward with their plans for how to operate “Project Earthly Existence”. Satan is portrayed as being selfishly wanting all the glory for the success of the plan, Jesus is portrayed as “altruistically” giving all the glory for the success of the plan to God. Interestingly, God decided to go with the plan that ensured He would get all the glory for Himself. Which is, when you think about it, portraying God as self serving.
I do not think I am misremembering but I remember the LDS idea here a bit differently. I thought the idea was that free agency was necessary for us all to reach our best potential and Satan's plan would limit that in favor of his own power. God's preference was in favor of all of the rest of us reaching our best potential. Of course the best outcome for all of rebounds to God's glory. There is not glory for God in failure of God's creation or our being blocked from growing to our potential. Our best outcome is God's glory.
....
Perhaps this puzzle is related to the perversion of the idea of love wherein an action for another is understood as should be unrelated to one's own good when in reality the good of another is naturally interconnect to one's own good.
But here’s what’s interesting. According to Mormonism, temptation and sin etc are necessary components of Mormon god’s plan temptation and sin are of the devil - Satan. So if Satan was as evil as Mormonism suggests he is, to scupper God’s plan all Satan need do is to stop doing his part of it. and if Satan is sticking to Mormon god’s plan and complying with it, playing his part, doing his bit, is he really the bad guy?
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
I do not think I am misremembering but I remember the LDS idea here a bit differently. I thought the idea was that free agency was necessary for us all to reach our best potential and Satan's plan would limit that in favor of his own power. God's preference was in favor of all of the rest of us reaching our best potential. Of course the best outcome for all of rebounds to God's glory. There is not glory for God in failure of God's creation or our being blocked from growing to our potential. Our best outcome is God's glory.
....
Perhaps this puzzle is related to the perversion of the idea of love wherein an action for another is understood as should be unrelated to one's own good when in reality the good of another is naturally interconnect to one's own good.
But here’s what’s interesting. According to Mormonism, temptation and sin etc are necessary components of Mormon god’s plan temptation and sin are of the devil - Satan. So if Satan was as evil as Mormonism suggests he is, to scupper God’s plan all Satan need do is to stop doing his part of it. and if Satan is sticking to Mormon god’s plan and complying with it, playing his part, doing his bit, is he really the bad guy?
This is why I think Will is so important. If Satan always acted motivated by pride then he would still be the bad guy. It was a skill issue that his moves were all used against him by the master strategist God.
“The ego is not master in its own house.” - Sigmund Freud
