God can write straight with crooked lines.

[Limnor]

As is par for the course, I will be accused of not having answered questions brought up earlier...questions that I have already approached and answered.

Just not in a way that is satisfactory to the die hard critics. This is to be expected.

You didn’t answer it.

I’ll meet you at a point here—I want to provide a response to gad that is reasonable—and satisfactory to myself—ref: the Amalekites, but it starts with God through Samuel did in fact say “thus says the Lord” with regard to what was commanded. We’ve talked about the horror Abraham experienced and it may be this was the same type of event, but I’m uncertain and frankly want to have a settled answer for myself—maybe even more than I want to present one for gad. He presents exactly the types of discussion I prefer.

All that said, I remain unconvinced these are the same gods, as there is no command external to Joseph for polygamy.

[MG 2.0]

Did Joseph always carry out the command of the Lord perfectly?

No. Why? As I've said before, multiple factors. One of the primary ones, in my opinion, being fear.

You've expended a lot of words without answering the simple question: Did God command polygamy?

We're asking a minimal question. Did God command Joseph Smith to practice polygamy in any way shape or form?

I haven't answered this question? Well, that was a slip that I can't let slide.

Yes, in some way, shape, or form...possibly all three...I think God did 'command' polygamy. Initially, as with many of Joseph's revelations, the divine guidance came in response to a question.

An interesting question might be whether or not polygamy would have been 'a thing' without Joseph's inquisitiveness. Does God already know the questions that are going to be asked?

If certain questions aren't asked that need to be asked does God step in or just let things transpire and/or move off some other direction? Does He then guide things back to where they 'ought to be'?

If so, is that part of God writing straight with crooked lines?

Just throwing some questions out there as thought experiments, even for those that doubt the existence of God.

Oh, and when God gives a revelation...as I referred to with the Section 132 example...are the words always just His words or is it a mix? Man/God imprinting on one another?

Collaborative revelation. A joint effort. Common consent.

Whether by my voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same. What does that mean in connection with Section 132 and other examples of revelation?

Interesting stuff.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Did Joseph always carry out the command of the Lord perfectly?

No. Why? As I've said before, multiple factors. One of the primary ones, in my opinion, being fear.

You've expended a lot of words...

Too many, right? I probably should back off...

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

...there is no command external to Joseph for polygamy.

It does come down to that one way or the other, doesn't it?

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

OK. I need to back off for now. Back at another time.
Have fun!

We reached page 100.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

...there is no command external to Joseph for polygamy.

It does come down to that one way or the other, doesn't it?

Regards,
MG

It only comes down to that if the possibility of false prophecy is ruled out from the start.

[Gadianton]

An interesting question might be whether or not polygamy would have been 'a thing' without Joseph's inquisitiveness. Does God already know the questions that are going to be asked?

God has a glorified physical body and a wife. Now, does he have just one wife, or does he have multiple wives? It use to be a common teaching that God was married to Mary in order to be Jesus's literal father. If God has multiple wives, then polygamy was an eternal law long before Joseph asked about it. As you pointed out, polygamy existed in the Old Testament. Polygamy is very much a thing without Joseph asking about it.

If certain questions aren't asked that need to be asked does God step in or just let things transpire and/or move off some other direction? Does He then guide things back to where they 'ought to be'?

I honestly don't know where you're going with this. You mean if Joseph didn't ask about polygamy, would God have introduced it anyway? Yes. Just as God would have restored the Church without Joseph Smith. If Joseph failed to ask God which church was true in the grove, then at some point, God would have found another vessel. If Joseph failed to ask about polygamy, and if it's truly an eternal law, then God would have found another way to bring it to pass, eventually.

Now, if God only has one wife, and wasn't the literal father of Jesus, and polygamy has nothing to do with God's eternal laws, but Joseph began to go in that direction such that God had to go along with it to keep it from blowing up the best he could, well, that doesn't fit any Mormon theology I learned. If polygamy was wrong, and Joseph asked about it, then God would have told him "no" just like he told him "join none of them" in regards to other churches. If Joseph would have joined the Presbyterian church, would God have said, "well, shucks, I guess Presbyterian it is, let's give it a go and see where it leads." However, for those convinced by Tolkien, I don't think we can rule out the possibility.

[malkie]

Joseph, reportedly, was a reluctant polygamist:

An angel came to him [Joseph Smith] and the last time he came with a drawn sword in his hand and told Joseph if he did not go into that principle, he would slay him. Joseph said he talked to him soberly about it, and told him it was an abomination and quoted scripture to him. He said in the Book of Mormon it was an abomination in the eyes of the Lord, and they were to adhere to these things except the Lord speak. … [The Prophet reported that] the angel came to me three times between the years of 1834 and 1842 and said I was to obey that principle or he would slay me.

Joseph Smith’s Polygamy: The Beginnings of Polygamy

What I would like to know, in light of the discussion about whether Mormon god actually commanded Joseph to practice polygamy, is this:
was the angel acting on his own, or was he acting as Mormon god's agent. Which of the two - angel or god - was prepared to kill Joseph if he (Joseph) did not disobey his own conscience. Which of them was interfering with Joseph's agency?

[Limnor]

Gad I’m going to take a stab here regarding the Amalekites, reading through the lens of Jesus’ teaching.

The Amalekite episode may work the same way “eye for an eye” and divorce law does in Matthew 19–it is depicted as a divine accommodation to hardened hearts rather than God’s ideal.

The command in 1 Samuel 15 follows God conceding kingship demands from the people and unsatisfied justice for historical suffering at the hands of an enemy.

Jesus tells us that some Mosaic commands were permitted “because of hardness of heart” and then rejects them as not in line with God’s original intent.

Through that view, Amalek could be read as tolerated violence preserved in scripture, later overturned by Jesus’ refusal of violence in God’s name.

Joseph takes this a step backwards by instituting polygamy that was tolerated and not directed historically through command.

I’m not fully satisfied with this explanation and would appreciate your feedback—extended to all.

(Also—not entirely fringe; Kierkegaard and Bonhoeffer express similar thoughts).

[Limnor]

You've expended a lot of words without answering the simple question: Did God command polygamy?

We're asking a minimal question. Did God command Joseph Smith to practice polygamy in any way shape or form?

I haven't answered this question? Well, that was a slip that I can't let slide.

Yes, in some way, shape, or form...possibly all three...I think God did 'command' polygamy. Initially, as with many of Joseph's revelations, the divine guidance came in response to a question.

An interesting question might be whether or not polygamy would have been 'a thing' without Joseph's inquisitiveness. Does God already know the questions that are going to be asked?

If certain questions aren't asked that need to be asked does God step in or just let things transpire and/or move off some other direction? Does He then guide things back to where they 'ought to be'?

If so, is that part of God writing straight with crooked lines?

Just throwing some questions out there as thought experiments, even for those that doubt the existence of God.

Oh, and when God gives a revelation...as I referred to with the Section 132 example...are the words always just His words or is it a mix? Man/God imprinting on one another?

Collaborative revelation. A joint effort. Common consent.

Whether by my voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same. What does that mean in connection with Section 132 and other examples of revelation?

Interesting stuff.

Regards,
MG

If God commanded polygamy—even through mixed or collaborative revelation—then God is supporting moral coercion overriding existing marital bonds, not as tolerating human failure.