The artificial intelligence MEGATHREAD

[Marcus]

Would you not agree that the most plausible triggers for early persecution of Joseph Smith and his family dealt with and/or consisted of multiple factors?

1. Money digging.
2. Glass looking reputation.
3. Family debt.
4. Failed economic ventures. (the Ginseng venture rising to the top).
5. Bold claims regarding God.
6. Accusations of idleness and improvidence.
7. Religious outliers from the outset.
8. Legal entanglements and neighborhood disputes.

I’d agree with this. I’m not sure if you think that list is supposed to strengthen Joseph’s credibility. Taken together, that list make it harder—not easier—to conclude he was telling the truth about the plates.

I doubt he would even recognize this list if he read it tomorrow or even an hour from now, so good luck getting a response. It doesn't represent his past opinions, his 'reading' he has posted about here, or his usual style. in my opinion, it's AI generated.

[Limnor]

I’d agree with this. I’m not sure if you think that list is supposed to strengthen Joseph’s credibility. Taken together, that list make it harder—not easier—to conclude he was telling the truth about the plates.

I doubt he would even recognize this list if he read it tomorrow or even an hour from now, so good luck getting a response. It doesn't represent his past opinions, his 'reading' he has posted about here, or his usual style. in my opinion, it's AI generated.

You’re probably right.

I was thinking about the term persecution and think maybe a more appropriate term might be “predictable consequences of shady business dealings.”

[Marcus]

I doubt he would even recognize this list if he read it tomorrow or even an hour from now, so good luck getting a response. It doesn't represent his past opinions, his 'reading' he has posted about here, or his usual style. in my opinion, it's AI generated.

You’re probably right.

I was thinking about the term persecution and think maybe a more appropriate term might be “predictable consequences of shady business dealings.”

History would agree with you, in my opinion.

[MG 2.0]

Would you not agree that the most plausible triggers for early persecution of Joseph Smith and his family dealt with and/or consisted of multiple factors?

1. Money digging.
2. Glass looking reputation.
3. Family debt.
4. Failed economic ventures. (the Ginseng venture rising to the top).
5. Bold claims regarding God.
6. Accusations of idleness and improvidence.
7. Religious outliers from the outset.
8. Legal entanglements and neighborhood disputes.

I’d agree with this. I’m not sure if you think that list is supposed to strengthen Joseph’s credibility. Taken together, that list make it harder—not easier—to conclude he was telling the truth about the plates.

There have been many conversations on this board about whether or not Joseph was telling the truth about the plates. Using this list of eight triggers/factors I don't see any one of them alone and/or as a group that really have any impact on the story of the plates. When you really dig, pun intended, in exploring the whole 'plate story' there is just too much there, in my opinion, that leads one to actually doubt that there were not plates.

Of course, then the argument has been, what were those plates, etc. In other discussions we have talked about the fact that if Joseph was putting on an act he went to a LOT of trouble and orchestrated activity, etc., in order to dupe his family, witnesses, and so forth.

I just don't think that he put all these 'moving parts', that have been discussed ad nauseum, together in/as a planned out 'con' to make money or gain power. There are too many things that lead away from that conclusion. If it was a con, for one thing, I don't think we would have a Book of Mormon...such as it is...that has brought so many people to Christ and His church independently of Joseph Smith and who he was and/or what he did or didn't do.

Testimonies are centered on Christ and His gospel. Ask any given member on any given Sunday at an LDS church what their testimony is based on. It's not the church, per se, it's Jesus and His Atonement. It's the Gospel teachings/commandments. It's the witness they receive through the Book of Mormon that Jesus is the Christ (Son of God).

Things are going to look a LOT different from the outside than they do from the inside looking through the eyes of someone that believes...and has good reasons to believe.

Regards,
MG

[malkie]

Would you not agree that the most plausible triggers for early persecution of Joseph Smith and his family dealt with and/or consisted of multiple factors?

1. Money digging.
2. Glass looking reputation.
3. Family debt.
4. Failed economic ventures. (the Ginseng venture rising to the top).
5. Bold claims regarding God.
6. Accusations of idleness and improvidence.
7. Religious outliers from the outset.
8. Legal entanglements and neighborhood disputes.

I’d agree with this—though I might call it something other than persecution. I’m not sure if you think that list is supposed to strengthen Joseph’s credibility. Taken together, that list make it harder—not easier—to conclude he was telling the truth about the plates.

Now that MG has helpfully summarized substantial reasons for folks to doubt the veracity and good character of Joseph Smith, I'm brought back again to this rhetorical question:
was Joseph really the best person Mormon god could find to restore the gospel? I'm sure that there are worse candidates, but I find it hard to imagine that there was no-one better. Was there no "Plan B", no understudy in the wings?

[MG 2.0]

I’d agree with this—though I might call it something other than persecution. I’m not sure if you think that list is supposed to strengthen Joseph’s credibility. Taken together, that list make it harder—not easier—to conclude he was telling the truth about the plates.

Now that MG has helpfully summarized substantial reasons for folks to doubt the veracity and good character of Joseph Smith, I'm brought back again to this rhetorical question:
was Joseph really the best person Mormon god could find to restore the gospel? I'm sure that there are worse candidates, but I find it hard to imagine that there was no-one better. Was there no "Plan B", no understudy in the wings?

Not so fast there pardner'.

Of course you realize that each and every one of the items in this list is open to dispute insofar as they make Joseph Smith, as an individual, unworthy to receive the revelations of God.

Let's look at that list again:

1. Money digging.
2. Glass looking reputation.
3. Family debt.
4. Failed economic ventures. (the Ginseng venture rising to the top).
5. Bold claims regarding God.
6. Accusations of idleness and improvidence.
7. Religious outliers from the outset.
8. Legal entanglements and neighborhood disputes.

One might ask the flip side of the question you've asked, "What are your expectations for someone to be called of God to do an important work?"

How perfect does a prophet need to be to be called of God? Some examples? You've got to remember (or not) Joseph was a young man, a farmer, uneducated, and a man of his time and place.

How much slack has God cut His prophets/apostles throughout prophetic history?

I'm having a had time counting up 'perfect prophets' on less than two fingers.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

Now that MG has helpfully summarized substantial reasons for folks to doubt the veracity and good character of Joseph Smith, I'm brought back again to this rhetorical question:
was Joseph really the best person Mormon god could find to restore the gospel? I'm sure that there are worse candidates, but I find it hard to imagine that there was no-one better. Was there no "Plan B", no understudy in the wings?

Not so fast there pardner'.

Of course you realize that each and every one of the items in this list is open to dispute insofar as they make Joseph Smith, as an individual, unworthy to receive the revelations of God.

Let's look at that list again:

1. Money digging.
2. Glass looking reputation.
3. Family debt.
4. Failed economic ventures. (the Ginseng venture rising to the top).
5. Bold claims regarding God.
6. Accusations of idleness and improvidence.
7. Religious outliers from the outset.
8. Legal entanglements and neighborhood disputes.

One might ask the flip side of the question you've asked, "What are your expectations for someone to be called of God to do an important work?"

How perfect does a prophet need to be to be called of God? Some examples? You've got to remember (or not) Joseph was a young man, a farmer, uneducated, and a man of his time and place.

How much slack has God cut His prophets/apostles throughout prophetic history?

I'm having a had time counting up 'perfect prophets' on less than two fingers.

Regards,
MG

I don’t think the issue is Imperfection. It’s behavior relevant to the specific claim. To me there is a big difference between David committing adultery and Moses having anger issues vs a person previously engaged in treasure seeking using the same rocks and method to “translate” buried golden plates. Really increases that hmmm factor.

[MG 2.0]

Not so fast there pardner'.

Of course you realize that each and every one of the items in this list is open to dispute insofar as they make Joseph Smith, as an individual, unworthy to receive the revelations of God.

Let's look at that list again:

1. Money digging.
2. Glass looking reputation.
3. Family debt.
4. Failed economic ventures. (the Ginseng venture rising to the top).
5. Bold claims regarding God.
6. Accusations of idleness and improvidence.
7. Religious outliers from the outset.
8. Legal entanglements and neighborhood disputes.

One might ask the flip side of the question you've asked, "What are your expectations for someone to be called of God to do an important work?"

How perfect does a prophet need to be to be called of God? Some examples? You've got to remember (or not) Joseph was a young man, a farmer, uneducated, and a man of his time and place.

How much slack has God cut His prophets/apostles throughout prophetic history?

I'm having a had time counting up 'perfect prophets' on less than two fingers.

Regards,
MG

I don’t think the issue is Imperfection. It’s behavior relevant to the specific claim. To me there is a big difference between David committing adultery and Moses having anger issues vs a person previously engaged in treasure seeking using the same rocks and method to “translate” buried golden plates. Really increases that hmmm factor.

Plug in. Sorites.

Regards,
MG

[Rivendale]

Not so fast there pardner'.

Of course you realize that each and every one of the items in this list is open to dispute insofar as they make Joseph Smith, as an individual, unworthy to receive the revelations of God.

Let's look at that list again:

1. Money digging.
2. Glass looking reputation.
3. Family debt.
4. Failed economic ventures. (the Ginseng venture rising to the top).
5. Bold claims regarding God.
6. Accusations of idleness and improvidence.
7. Religious outliers from the outset.
8. Legal entanglements and neighborhood disputes.

One might ask the flip side of the question you've asked, "What are your expectations for someone to be called of God to do an important work?"

How perfect does a prophet need to be to be called of God? Some examples? You've got to remember (or not) Joseph was a young man, a farmer, uneducated, and a man of his time and place.

How much slack has God cut His prophets/apostles throughout prophetic history?

I'm having a had time counting up 'perfect prophets' on less than two fingers.

Regards,
MG

I don’t think the issue is Imperfection. It’s behavior relevant to the specific claim. To me there is a big difference between David committing adultery and Moses having anger issues vs a person previously engaged in treasure seeking using the same rocks and method to “translate” buried golden plates. Really increases that hmmm factor.

Another important fact is the preponderance of frauds that are actually caught. Believers for whatever reason usually don't consider that they could be being bamboozled.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Is the information you posted from Chat GPT accurate? If you asked the same question of Grok, Claude, Perplexity, or Gemini would you get eerily similar answers? Would that increase or decrease the likelihood that your original inquiry was right or wrong? Would the same scenario hold true to almost any inquiry you would entertain regarding early Mormon history? Do you know enough about early Mormon history to 'fact check' your Chat GPT inquiry 'on the fly and know that you are correct'?

Back to your post.

Would you not agree that the most plausible triggers for early persecution of Joseph Smith and his family dealt with and/or consisted of multiple factors?

1. Money digging.
2. Glass looking reputation.
3. Family debt.
4. Failed economic ventures. (the Ginseng venture rising to the top).
5. Bold claims regarding God.
6. Accusations of idleness and improvidence.
7. Religious outliers from the outset.
8. Legal entanglements and neighborhood disputes.

Granted, there would have been some that were more interested in Joseph's glass looking activities for various reasons. And they came after him in connection with those various reasons.

In my previous posts I noticed that you didn't respond to specifics. Would you care to?

You are going down a trail that now has been travelled many times with various conclusions. You've made yours. For others it remains a 'mixed bag' which, as in so many other instances, leaves one to discern/choose between greater goods and/or lesser evils (if you want to call it that).

Regards,
Fibber

Mentalgymnast is posting AI again.

Fibber,

Have you no shame?