How often "plates" are discussed here.

[Rivendale]

When Jehovah/Jesus communicated with Moses we learn that Jesus, as God, was also involved in the creation of many other worlds. What that looks like in the wide expanse of the cosmos/eternity is a question that belongs to others with a greater capacity to put the larger puzzle together.

So was Jesus eternally God or did He progress to become a God like His Father?

Throws a kink in the mortality aspect doesn't it? How did Jesus become exalted without first going through mortality?

[malkie]

When Jehovah/Jesus communicated with Moses we learn that Jesus, as God, was also involved in the creation of many other worlds. What that looks like in the wide expanse of the cosmos/eternity is a question that belongs to others with a greater capacity to put the larger puzzle together.

So was Jesus eternally God or did He progress to become a God like His Father?

And if it was through "progress", was he a god before his mortality?

[Limnor]

It appears another clarification is in order…The church teaches that Jesus Christ created the earth...coeternal (the Father and the Son)…Jesus, as God…is a question that belongs to others with a greater capacity to put the larger puzzle together…much of what we banter around is speculation…conjecture…on a basic epistemological level and devotional level/practice…I choose comfort…

Translated: “I don’t know, and I’m not going to try to explain it because I don’t have the capacity and am comfortable.”

[Gadianton]

When I used the word heavens

You used the word "heaven" not "heavens", had you used "heavens" I would have chalked it as agreement with Blake. Your first three paragraphs appear on point otherwise, good job.

I do not look at Blake Ostler as a prophet

It would be odd if you did considering he rejects knowledge of the future.

I do think that his contributions have added to our understanding and appreciation for our Father in Heaven and His Son

This is interesting. Let's say that on a scale of 1-10 you appreciated the big guy and his son at around a 7.8. Then you read Ostler, and after that, you came to appreciate these two crazy cats at say, an 8.5. Is that fair?

In the church and even among "chapel Mormons" my guess is that there are #1's and #2's

Good luck with that.

believe that a creator God/divine intelligence is behind all that we see and are.

But we are fundamentally intelligences that are co-eternal with God and not created, so how is God "behind all" that we are?

MG, I think when it comes down to it you have a solid understanding of the gospel. However, you have a massive propensity to drone on in Mormonese. Speaking Mormonese and articulating Mormon doctrine are not the same thing. You're so deeply a product of Mormonism that you come to a board like this and talk the same way as you would at church. At church, you can put nonsensical sentences together about your beliefs and everyone pretends to know what you're talking about, even though they don't. They don't need to, as certain phrasing and how you're saying it is what marks you as one of them or not. And testimony culture is a great randomizer, where a person will be nervous and improvising and just catching key phrases they remember from others that keeps the production on track in the minds of the audience.

[Limnor]

So was Jesus eternally God or did He progress to become a God like His Father?

Throws a kink in the mortality aspect doesn't it? How did Jesus become exalted without first going through mortality?

Guess this is an uncontested dunk.

[MG 2.0]

But we are fundamentally intelligences that are co-eternal with God and not created, so how is God "behind all" that we are?

One might say that God...being greater than they all...was the Author of our progression. He knew the way. He had traveled that road perfectly. Yeah, I know I'm using "Mormonese".

Got any better idea?

If thou knoweth the truth, speak it. But once you get off on a philosophical tangent of one kind or another using analogies/stories, remember...even the least of these thy brethren should be able to understand 'the plan' and/or the ways of God, if indeed there is one.

Not everyone carries philosophical bona fides or lives in an Ivory Tower. Whatever God's plan is I think that it's gotta make sense to anyone from the lowest to the highest. Isn't it interesting that in some of the most impoverished areas of the world where people have little of worldly means they are able to develop a faith and confidence in a Creator. Whatever they might refer to Him as. Her, if you count Mary and some of the other female deities.

Why do the learned have such a hard time with belief? Sorry, a bit of a ramble there.

Regards,
MG

Astronauts are back!!!

[Limnor]

But we are fundamentally intelligences that are co-eternal with God and not created, so how is God "behind all" that we are?

Does this mean that you yourself are your own god and behind it all? Mind blown.

[malkie]

...!

MG says it's interesting that extremely poor people are "able to develop a faith and confidence in a Creator".

It is interesting, and has been studied as a sociological phenomenon, with some explanations about the question of, as he puts it, "Why do the learned have such a hard time with belief?" The question is loaded, as MG is no doubt aware.

But let's put that aside for the moment. What is it that MG, with his focus on poor people's general belief in a creator, is leaving out?

As is well known, the area of current greatest growth for the Mormon church is Africa, where there are many poor people. There are now about 500,000-600,000 African Mormons - WOW! But which churches have attracted the greatest numbers of these poor but full-of-faith Africans? Well, there are about 300,000,000 Protestants, of whom about 12,000,000 are Adventists.

In other words, their great faith has taken them almost anywhere but Mormonism. Even some of the smaller Anglican, Lutheran, and Baptist sects have around the same number of members as the Mormons. If some god's plan has "gotta make sense to anyone from the lowest to the highest", then in Africa it seems that Mormonism just doesn't make sense - at least, it's not where the god of Christianity is leading people to join up.
[information for the previous 2 paras is from: Christianity in Africa: Denominations]

Anticipated rebuttal: numbers aren't everything! [Although apparently 385,490 baptisms worldwide is a sign of vitality.]

Anyway, back to my project!

[MG 2.0]

...god's plan has "gotta make sense to anyone from the lowest to the highest"...

I think my point was rather clear. I've said before, a number of times, that "God's plan" is much bigger than Mormonism. How could it not be? The LDS Church is a drop in the bucket of humanity.

I'm saying that it is the poor and humble...both in means and in spirit...that are more likely to see the Creator manifest/operating in their life. Think about Islam and prayers three times a day and repeating often the words, "If God wills it" or something similar. Other faiths with large numbers of people that are not the rich and educated of the earth naturally come to God. By whatever name they worship Him.

So...the CofJCofLDS, if it has a message of truth must be readily accessible and understandable even to the least of these my brethren. God, in my estimation, ought to be available in some form to ALL.

That's why I find Gadianton's words/ thoughts interesting but at the end of the day rather empty in the sense that poor/humble people 'get it'. But he doesn't, no matter how hard he might try.

One might ask, "Why is that?"

Nothing against him as a person at all. In fact, he seems to be a rather nice guy from what I can tell. Mostly civil. A bit arrogant, but that's to be expected.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

... So...the CofJCofLDS, if it has a message of truth must be readily accessible and understandable even to the least of these my brethren. God, in my estimation, ought to be available in some form to ALL.

That's why I find Gadianton's words/ thoughts interesting but at the end of the day rather empty in the sense that poor/humble people 'get it'. But he doesn't, no matter how hard he might try.

One might ask, "Why is that?"

Nothing against him as a person at all. In fact, he seems to be a rather nice guy from what I can tell. Mostly civil. A bit arrogant, but that's to be expected...

Lol. No continuity whatsoever from the first paragraph I quoted to his bizarre assessment of Gad, who writes circles around our trolling yahoo.

Anyway. Back to the thread:

...!

MG says it's interesting that extremely poor people are "able to develop a faith and confidence in a Creator"....

or maybe it's just that they are too poor to have the internet.

...It is interesting, and has been studied as a sociological phenomenon, with some explanations about the question of, as he puts it, "Why do the learned have such a hard time with belief?" The question is loaded, as MG is no doubt aware.

But let's put that aside for the moment. What is it that MG, with his focus on poor people's general belief in a creator, is leaving out?

As is well known, the area of current greatest growth for the Mormon church is Africa, where there are many poor people. There are now about 500,000-600,000 African Mormons - WOW! But which churches have attracted the greatest numbers of these poor but full-of-faith Africans? Well, there are about 300,000,000 Protestants, of whom about 12,000,000 are Adventists.

In other words, their great faith has taken them almost anywhere but Mormonism. Even some of the smaller Anglican, Lutheran, and Baptist sects have around the same number of members as the Mormons. If some god's plan has "gotta make sense to anyone from the lowest to the highest", then in Africa it seems that Mormonism just doesn't make sense - at least, it's not where the god of Christianity is leading people to join up....
[information for the previous 2 paras is from: Christianity in Africa: Denominations]

Wow. That really puts the Mormon efforts in Africa into perspective. Thanks for the information, malkie.