WHO or WHICH is most important?

[Shulem]

...false prophets who claimed that Jesus was coming in the last forty years, such as Hal Lindsey...

I so remember that! I purchased it back in the day (LAST DAYS) and recall TV commercials promoting his new book:





Christian False Prophecy!

[bill4long]

[bill4long]

[Limnor]

I lean toward a partial preterist view within a telescoped fulfillment of prophecy as a way to understand those verses.

“You never go full preterist.” SGT Lincoln Osiris, United States Army

That is an apologetic fallback that would not have been well received by the apostles who formed the Christian church and established the beliefs concerning the Second Coming. The JW’s are having to rebrand and walk back their predictions and the Mormons had to do the same after Joseph Smith died and time (latter days) continued ever onward.

May I suggest you simply 86 the cult and move on?

I find partial preterism interesting for reasons beyond the “this generation” passages.

For one, the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple was an event that Jesus appears to discuss in detail. That makes me think at least some fulfillment occurred in the first century.

I also find the abrupt ending of Acts interesting. Luke ends with Paul under house arrest in Rome and says nothing about Paul’s death, Peter’s death, Nero’s persecution, or the destruction of the Temple. Additionally, Josephus mentions some unusual accounts of armies or chariots in the sky. While his mention of those things might be exaggeration, they have caught my eye, and could even suggest a “rapture” prior to the destruction of the temple.

All that said, I don’t think partial preterism explains everything. I still see things that seem to point beyond the first century, which is why I find a telescoped or dual-fulfillment approach compelling.

As for “86 the cult and move on,” I appreciate the suggestion, but I’m interested in understanding the texts and the history of interpretation whether or not we agree on the conclusions. I don’t place my faith in a complete understanding of those things.

[Limnor]

I’ve been thinking about what I might “86.” I’m not Mormon and I’m not a member of any denominational church, so I’m not sure what I’m supposed to 86. I’m offering an interpretation of the text, not defending an institution.

[bill4long]

I find partial preterism interesting for reasons beyond the “this generation” passages.

For one, the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple was an event that Jesus appears to discuss in detail. That makes me think at least some fulfillment occurred in the first century.

Some fulfillment did occur. The temple was razed. But Jesus was expected to return immediately thereafter. How much of the prophecy was prophecy-after-the-fact? There's no way to know. But the fact is, Jesus didn't return.

I also find the abrupt ending of Acts interesting. Luke ends with Paul under house arrest in Rome and says nothing about Paul’s death, Peter’s death, Nero’s persecution, or the destruction of the Temple. Additionally, Josephus mentions some unusual accounts of armies or chariots in the sky. While his mention of those things might be exaggeration, they have caught my eye, and could even suggest a “rapture” prior to the destruction of the temple.

Where's the evidence?

All that said, I don’t think partial preterism explains everything. I still see things that seem to point beyond the first century

Such as what?

As for “86 the cult and move on,” I appreciate the suggestion, but I’m interested in understanding the texts and the history of interpretation whether or not we agree on the conclusions. I don’t place my faith in a complete understanding of those things.

Might I suggest Occam's Razor? The simplest and most plausible explanation is that the prophecies and expectation of the end were simply wrong. But I'm interested in any evidence you have to the contrary.

[Limnor]

I think “fulfillment after the fact” is a fair possibility, and if all we had were the passages that speak to a near return, I would find that argument much stronger.

But I’d hesitate to consider the entire discourse a failed prophecy. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple appears to be described in considerable detail, and that event did occur within the generation Jesus was addressing. But at the same time, the resurrection of the dead, a final judgment, and lions lying down with lambs seem to point to an ultimate fulfillment to come.

That’s why I find some form of telescoped or dual fulfillment compelling. I’ve mentioned what I see as patterns where an initial fulfillment occurs in the near term while an ultimate fulfillment comes later, and that’s worth considering to me.

As for evidence, I wouldn’t claim Josephus proves anything. I just find it interesting that he records reports of unusual signs accompanying the fall of Jerusalem. I don’t think of them as evidence for a rapture, only as historical observations that caught my attention.

So for me the question is more complicated, maybe more than “were the prophecies wrong?” but more than one horizon of fulfillment.

I don’t know the answer with certainty, but it’s a possibility I’ve explored and one that I’ve come to consider a reasonable explanation, or maybe even an expectation.

[Shulem]

I find partial preterism interesting for reasons beyond the “this generation” passages.

For one, the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple was an event that Jesus appears to discuss in detail. That makes me think at least some fulfillment occurred in the first century.

Some fulfillment did occur. The temple was razed. But Jesus was expected to return immediately thereafter. How much of the prophecy was prophecy-after-the-fact? There's no way to know. But the fact is, Jesus didn't return.

Bill4long, you hit the nail on the head!

Christ never indicated that his Second Coming (return) would take place thousands (plural) of years after his death. Far from it! That is not the message of the Christian religion. Jesus’s prophecies were about events that were said to shortly occur during the generation at hand -- whereafter complete fulfillment was not thousands of years into the future but in the end times that were soon and near. Those buzzwords described the times in which every word of the prophecy would be fulfilled! The time in which *all* (not partial) things concerning Jesus’s prophecies was soon to be fulfilled:

6) As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7) And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

• 20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed...

• 22) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

• 24)...Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

• 31) So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

• 32) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew’s account assured the Christians that salvation was at hand and that all those things would be fulfilled, NOT thousands of years into the future!

22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

• 29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days

• 30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

• 32)...summer is nigh:

• 33)...even at the doors.

• 34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Preterism is DOA! It is nothing but apologetic quackery.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

[Shulem]

I’ve been thinking about what I might “86.” I’m not Mormon and I’m not a member of any denominational church, so I’m not sure what I’m supposed to 86. I’m offering an interpretation of the text, not defending an institution.

This:

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.

That:

...shortly come to pass
...shortly be done.

[Shulem]

All that said, I don’t think partial preterism explains everything. I still see things that seem to point beyond the first century

Such as what?

John’s prophecy leaves the end times behind and zooms far into the future:

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Now I ask, what verse in the Bible lends us to believe that Christ® and his apostles believed the Second Coming™ was thousands of years into the future?

ANSWER: None.