Trump Bombed Iranian Nuclear Site Fordo Today. Are We in WW 3?

[Gadianton]

I’ve lived through wildly swinging policy changes. One of the challenges is to remain apolitical, serving elected civilian leadership regardless of personal views on a given policy.

How much is dictated by the ideology of the leader and how much the deep state? For instance, details may have been different, but would Kamala have also been pressured to bomb Iran?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Japanese internment camps, torture interrogation techniques in Iraq, the Vietnam strategy, firing on laborers, and so forth. Lots and lots examples of legal policies and orders being so heinous that noncompliance would’ve been the right thing to do.

It’s incumbent on military officers to be the conscience of their country when the civilians over them are acting immorally, albeit legally. Legality is not equal to right and wrong in many cases.

The risk is that it sounds appropriate when we consider officers resisting policies we oppose. It becomes much less appropriate when officers resist policies we support.

I’ve lived through wildly swinging policy changes. One of the challenges is to remain apolitical, serving elected civilian leadership regardless of personal views on a given policy.

I was just following orders doesn’t fly.

[Limnor]

I’ve lived through wildly swinging policy changes. One of the challenges is to remain apolitical, serving elected civilian leadership regardless of personal views on a given policy.

How much is dictated by the ideology of the leader and how much the deep state? For instance, details may have been different, but would Kamala have also been pressured to bomb Iran?

The “deep state” commentary, from the inside, looks a lot less threatening or conspiratorial than as painted.

Ironically, what we’ve discussed as resistance to legal orders could be described as the “deep state” from other quarters, but I’d say it’s a lot less dramatic than that—it seems more like people arguing their positions and the leader deciding. So you’ll get competing threat assessments, resource assessments, references to plans already on the shelf, and other points all seen from many points of view.

Sure, I think there may have been pressure to on Harris to attack Iran, but at the end of the day it would have been hers to approach and shape. She may have presented her plan to Congress, for example. She could always fire those in opposition to her policies.

I’d recommend following Elbridge Colby as an advisor to Trump.

[Limnor]

The risk is that it sounds appropriate when we consider officers resisting policies we oppose. It becomes much less appropriate when officers resist policies we support.

I’ve lived through wildly swinging policy changes. One of the challenges is to remain apolitical, serving elected civilian leadership regardless of personal views on a given policy.

I was just following orders doesn’t fly.

That’s a fair point. I’m just pointing out that sometimes it’s more complicated than in what might be seen as simpler cases. My Lai is a good example.

[Some Schmo]

I was just following orders doesn’t fly.

That’s a fair point. I’m just pointing out that sometimes it’s more complicated than in what might be seen as simpler cases. My Lai is a good example.

Is that a good example? Seems to me that was one of the more obvious examples of simply resisting orders being the right thing to do. Doesn't seem complicated at all, for someone who has moral clarity.

[Limnor]

That’s a fair point. I’m just pointing out that sometimes it’s more complicated than in what might be seen as simpler cases. My Lai is a good example.

Is that a good example? Seems to me that was one of the more obvious examples of simply resisting orders being the right thing to do. Doesn't seem complicated at all, for someone who has moral clarity.

Apologies—I meant a good example of when to refuse.

Examples of lawful orders that must be obeyed include deploying to a war you oppose or executing a legal strike you believe is misguided.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Is that a good example? Seems to me that was one of the more obvious examples of simply resisting orders being the right thing to do. Doesn't seem complicated at all, for someone who has moral clarity.

Apologies—I meant a good example of when to refuse.

Examples of lawful orders that must be obeyed include deploying to a war you oppose or executing a legal strike you believe is misguided.

Adm. Alvin Holsey was the SOUTHCOM CDR, when he raised legal and operational concerns about the strikes on civilian boats which led to a ‘tense’ disagreement with the DefSec before announcing his retirement. The question of using US Armed Forces against suspected drug traffickers is so obviously illegal that to justify the act is madness. I’m saddened by the officers who carry out this crime.

[Some Schmo]

Is that a good example? Seems to me that was one of the more obvious examples of simply resisting orders being the right thing to do. Doesn't seem complicated at all, for someone who has moral clarity.

Apologies—I meant a good example of when to refuse.

Examples of lawful orders that must be obeyed include deploying to a war you oppose or executing a legal strike you believe is misguided.

Gotcha.

It occurs to me that being in the US military is fraught with moral choices, given the current conditions (Trump and Hegseth being the incompetent screw-ups that they obviously are). Personally, when I see military recruitment posters these days, I have mixed feelings I never experienced before.

[Limnor]

Doc and schmo— I think those are fair observations. I’d hesitate to put all military personnel in the same basket. I personally struggled with my own commitments but believe I’ve navigated the complexities in line with my own conscience.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Doc and schmo— I think those are fair observations. I’d hesitate to put all military personnel in the same basket. I personally struggled with my own commitments but believe I’ve navigated the complexities in line with my own conscience.

It’s tricky for service personnel, for sure. I’m a retired MSG with some overseas experience and, you’re correct in that most of us can’t opt out from mission sets or wars, aside from obvious situations like My Lai. Officers have more leeway, and so I expect them to exercise all options before participating in something they believe is immoral, such as the attack and war on Iran.