WHO or WHICH is most important?

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Shulem
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Re: WHO or WHICH is most important?

Post by Shulem »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2026 3:02 am
Shulem wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2026 3:11 pm
The temple was raised to the ground in 70 AD around the time John produced the book of Revelation.
I think you mean "razed."

Yes, you are correct.

Interestingly enough, you’ll recall that Jesus said, “But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple” and on one occasion took it upon himself to clear the temple of moneychangers and afterward “the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them”, whereafter there were shouts of “Hosanna” to his goodness. The temple was a favorite hangout for Jesus in teaching his gospel message (Luke 21:37,38); later, after Christ died, the apostles spent their time “daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.” The point being, the temple was basically ground zero and the holiest place on earth for both Jesus and his disciples. Recall St Paul telling the Thessalonians about the imminent return of Jesus Christ and how the saints must have faith in the promise of “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

THEN, in Paul’s next breath the saints are warned about the coming of the AntiChrist (2 Thes 2) and how he “sitteth in the temple of God.” This prophecy must take place prior to the Jerusalem temple being RAZED to the ground during the endtimes when Christ would return.

Again, Christian prophecies failed. Christ was supposed to return and overthrow the AntiChrist, but what we get is the temple being razed, Christians shown the door, and crazy (drug-induced?) prophecies of John the revelator spouting utter nonsense. And here we are, 2,000 years later, modern Christians are oblivious to the false prophecies of Christianity because they have been brainwashed.

Amen.
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Re: WHO or WHICH is most important?

Post by LittleNipper »

Shulem wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2026 11:57 am
Dr. Shades wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2026 3:02 am

I think you mean "razed."

Yes, you are correct.

Interestingly enough, you’ll recall that Jesus said, “But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple” and on one occasion took it upon himself to clear the temple of moneychangers and afterward “the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them”, whereafter there were shouts of “Hosanna” to his goodness. The temple was a favorite hangout for Jesus in teaching his gospel message (Luke 21:37,38); later, after Christ died, the apostles spent their time “daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.” The point being, the temple was basically ground zero and the holiest place on earth for both Jesus and his disciples. Recall St Paul telling the Thessalonians about the imminent return of Jesus Christ and how the saints must have faith in the promise of “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

THEN, in Paul’s next breath the saints are warned about the coming of the AntiChrist (2 Thes 2) and how he “sitteth in the temple of God.” This prophecy must take place prior to the Jerusalem temple being RAZED to the ground during the endtimes when Christ would return.

Again, Christian prophecies failed. Christ was supposed to return and overthrow the AntiChrist, but what we get is the temple being razed, Christians shown the door, and crazy (drug-induced?) prophecies of John the revelator spouting utter nonsense. And here we are, 2,000 years later, modern Christians are oblivious to the false prophecies of Christianity because they have been brainwashed.
Amen.
THE ANTICHRIST has not come yet. And as such Christ has not returned to overthrow him. There have been Anti-Christ types, and certainly Hitler was one of them, but he was but a warning shot of things to come that are far worse. Hitler did nothing to the land of Israel directly. In fact in 1933 the Nazis and Zionist organizations struck the Haavara Transfer Agreement allowing Jews to immigrate to "Palestine." I hold to a pre-tribulation view. And that is the understanding that like Methuselah who died right before the FLOOD and Noah and his family who were carried in the ark over the FLOOD ---- the CHURCH will be raptured and protected from the Tribulation judgment and not experience it. HOWEVER, there will be those that come to the realization of what is happening and become Christians, but they will be the ones who persevere through it. It will be a terrible time for everyone left behind. In fact the 144,000 will be Jewish virgin males who will become missionaries to those left behind and be martyred.
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Re: WHO or WHICH is most important?

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LittleNipper wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2026 2:47 pm
THE ANTICHRIST has not come yet.
There is no yet. The prophecy of the coming of the AntiChrist failed. The temple was razed, the church scattered, and Christ never showed up, ever again. And now here we are 2,000 years later with modern Christian trying to sell a bill of goods...

Not buying it!
LittleNipper wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2026 2:47 pm
And as such Christ has not returned to overthrow him.
Because, my friend, Christ is dead. He is gone. Period.
LittleNipper wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2026 2:47 pm
There have been Anti-Christ types, and certainly Hitler was one of them, but he was but a warning shot of things to come that are far worse. Hitler did nothing to the land of Israel directly. In fact in 1933 the Nazis and Zionist organizations struck the Haavara Transfer Agreement allowing Jews to immigrate to "Palestine." I hold to a pre-tribulation view. And that is the understanding that like Methuselah who died right before the FLOOD and Noah and his family who were carried in the ark over the FLOOD ---- the CHURCH will be raptured and protected from the Tribulation judgment and not experience it. HOWEVER, there will be those that come to the realization of what is happening and become Christians, but they will be the ones who persevere through it. It will be a terrible time for everyone left behind.
All of the above is bogus modern interpretations in a wild effort to resurrect prophecies that failed. Total no-go! Nothing more than scare tactics offered up by Christians trying to scare the world in bending the knee to a dead Christ. Further, St. Paul was not speaking to you, LittleNipper. He paid no mind whatsoever to your future time, beyond 2,000 years -- 2026 AD. The furthest thing from the minds of the apostles was 1,000 years AD, into the future when Satan would be unchained for a little season. Paul was concerned with his own times and the iminent fulfillment of the soon to be Second Coming of Christ and the end of the world:
  • 2 Thes 1:1 “Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians (LittleNipper NOT included)
  • 2 Thes 1:2 “Grace unto you
  • 2 Thes 1:6 “God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you”...
  • 2 Thes 1:7 “And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,”
Sorry, LittleNipper, but the prophecy failed and the poor Thessalonians were duped.
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Re: WHO or WHICH is most important?

Post by LittleNipper »

The tribulation is a future seven-year period when God will finish His discipline of Israel and finalize His judgment of the unbelieving world. The church, comprised of all who have trusted in the person and work of the Lord Jesus, will not be present during the tribulation (Got Questions Ministries takes a pretribulational approach to eschatology). The church will be removed from the earth in an event called the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13–18; 1 Corinthians 15:51–53). In this way, the church is saved from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Throughout Scripture, the tribulation is associated with the day of the Lord, that time during which God personally intervenes in history to accomplish His plan (see Isaiah 2:12; 13:6–9; Joel 1:15; 2:1–31; 3:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2). It is referred to as “tribulation . . . in the latter days” (Deuteronomy 4:30); the great tribulation, which refers to the more intense second half of the seven-year period (Matthew 24:21); “a time of distress” (Daniel 12:1); and “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7). And we have this description of the tribulation that attends the day of the Lord:

“That day will be a day of wrath— a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness— a day of trumpet and battle cry” (Zephaniah 1:15–16).

The tribulation will be marked by various divine judgments, celestial disturbances, natural disasters, and terrible plagues (see Revelation 6—16). In His mercy, God sets a limit on the duration of the tribulation. As Jesus said, “Those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive” (Mark 13:19–20).

Daniel 9:24–27 reveals the purpose and time of the tribulation. This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against “your people.” Daniel’s people are the Jews, the nation of Israel, and Daniel 9:24 speaks of a period of time in which God’s purpose is “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” God declares that “seventy sevens” will fulfill all these things. The “sevens” are groups of years, so 70 sevens is 490 years. (Some translations refer to 70 “weeks” of years.)

In Daniel 9:25 and 26, the Messiah will be cut off after “seven sevens and sixty-two sevens” (69 total sevens), beginning with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens (483 years) after the decree to rebuild is issued, the Messiah will die. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified. Most Christian scholars, regardless of their view of eschatology, have the above understanding of Daniel’s 70 sevens.

God said that 70 weeks had been determined (490 years), but, with the death of the Messiah, we only have 69 weeks accounted for (483 years). This leaves one seven-year period to be fulfilled “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy” (Daniel 9:24). This final seven-year period is what we call the tribulation—the time when God finishes judging Israel and brings them back to Himself.

Daniel 9:27 gives a few highlights of the final week, the seven-year tribulation period: “[A ruler] will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” Jesus refers to this passage in Matthew 24:15. The ruler who confirms the covenant and then sets up the abomination is called “the beast” in Revelation 13. According to Daniel 9:27, the beast’s covenant will be for seven years, but in the middle of this week (3 ½ years into the tribulation), the beast will break the covenant, putting a stop to the Jewish sacrifices. Revelation 13 explains that the beast will place an image of himself in the temple and require the world to worship him. Revelation 13:5 says that this will go on for 42 months, which is 3 ½ years (the second half of the tribulation). So, we see a covenant lasting to the middle of the “week” (Daniel 9:27) and the beast who made the covenant demanding worship for 42 months (Revelation 13:5). Therefore, the total length of time is 84 months or seven years.

We also have a reference to the last half of the tribulation in Daniel 7:25. There, the ruler will oppress God’s people for “a time, times, and half a time” (time=1 year; times=2 years; half a time=½ year; total of 3 ½ years). This time of oppression against the Jews is also described in Revelation 13:5–7 and is part of the “great tribulation,” the latter half of the seven-year tribulation when the beast, or the Antichrist, will be in power.

A further reference to the timing of events in the tribulation is found in Revelation 11:2–3, which speaks of 1,260 days and 42 months (both equaling 3 ½ years, using the “prophetic year” of 360 days). Also, Daniel 12:11–12 speaks of 1,290 days and 1,335 days from the midpoint of the tribulation. The additional days in Daniel 12 may include time after the tribulation for the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31–46) and time for the setting up of Christ’s millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4–6).

In summary, the tribulation is the seven-year period in the end times in which humanity’s decadence and depravity will reach its fullness, with God judging accordingly. Also during that time, Israel will repent of their sin and receive Jesus as their Messiah, setting up a time of great blessing and restoration (Zephaniah 3:9–20; Isaiah 12; 35).

The above article is found here: https://www.gotquestions.org/tribulation.html
2 Peter 3:8 stating a day is like a thousand years) to suggest a master plan for humanity, where 6,000 years represent human history and the final 1,000 years represent a Sabbath (the Millenial Kingdom where the lion shall lay with the wolf) Isaiah 11:6-9
6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling[a] together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.
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Re: WHO or WHICH is most important?

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LittleNipper wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2026 3:32 pm
The tribulation is a future seven-year period when God will finish His discipline of Israel and finalize His judgment of the unbelieving world.

<snip>
Dear Readers,

Do not let modern Christians scare you. They are trying to keep the cult alive and will probably continue to do so for hundreds of years to come, if not thousands and their cult will mutate into God knows what. FEAR and DREAD is what keeps their cult going and they will do anything to make you afraid for failing to join them.

You don’t need Jesus to save you and neither do you need Joseph Smith to present you to Jesus. They are peas in a pod -- DEAD and gone.

As ever,

Shulem
LittleNipper wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2026 3:32 pm
...when the beast, or the Antichrist, will be in power.
It was said to have happened thousands of years ago during the era of the original Christian movement:
1 John 2:18 wrote:
  • Little children, it is the last time:
  • and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now
  • are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Dear St. John,

No, my friend, it is NOT the last time. You are wrong. Christ is not coming back in your lifetime or during the lifetime of any AntiChrist of your era or hundreds or even thousands of years thereafter! Christ is dead, period.

Your cult will never see the fulfillment of false prophecies.

Sincerely,

Shulem
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Re: WHO or WHICH is most important?

Post by LittleNipper »

Shulem wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2026 3:51 pm
LittleNipper wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2026 3:32 pm
The tribulation is a future seven-year period when God will finish His discipline of Israel and finalize His judgment of the unbelieving world.

<snip>

Dear Readers,

Do not let modern Christians scare you. They are trying to keep the cult alive and will probably continue to do so for hundreds of years to come, if not thousands and their cult will mutate into God knows what. FEAR and DREAD is what keeps their cult going and they will do anything to make you afraid for failing to join them.

You don’t need Jesus to save you and neither do you need Joseph Smith to present you to Jesus. They are peas in a pod -- DEAD and gone.

As ever,

Shulem
Dear Readers,

Christianity lacks the coercive, exploitative, and isolated characteristics of a destructive cult. There is no sole human leader. Authority is placed in historical scriptures and the concept of God, rather than a single, infallible, living leader. There exists an open system of investigation. Christianity has a tremendous tradition of theological debate, scholarship, and public questioning rather than demanding blind obedience to one person. There is transparency and social community as opposed to isolating members from the outside world. Christianity generally encourages active participation in the society at large, without any hidden agendas, plus open public worship. Grace vs. Works-Based Control is its core value. Faith emphasizes salvation as a free gift of grace rather than a commitment to a particular organization of leadership or tradition.

True, Christians accept that there is an afterlife to be concerned about. One cannot believe in anything or everything and expect to be saved from an eternal separation from GOD. GOD ultimately has made a way, and that is Christ ALONE. And that would seem righteously logical since Jesus is GOD's SON. Why add the torture of the MESSIAH to a myriad of other roads of self acquired salvation. It simply would make any sense.
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Re: WHO or WHICH is most important?

Post by Shulem »

LittleNipper wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2026 6:17 pm
Christianity lacks the coercive, exploitative, and isolated characteristics of a destructive cult. There is no sole human leader.

The Christian cult/church/religion (whatever) has been around a long time and ruled societies and peoples with an iron fist. Through the Dark Ages and other eras, the Christians caused a tremendous amount of horrific pain and suffering while wielding power and influence over nations.

Looking back, it was horrible and thank God the biblical prophecies (Book of Revelation) are nothing more than the insane thoughts of a a man who was hell bent on getting revenge over the world. It is a Satanic book!

I am very grateful to have turned away from Christian dogma and live an authentic life of my own choosing without religion telling me what to do. My life is mine and mine only!

I AM.
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Re: WHO or WHICH is most important?

Post by Limnor »

I’ve been reading Origen’s response to Celsus, who makes a similar argument about Jesus “coming on the clouds” as a failed prophecy. There are interesting parallels, and Origen seems to take a partial-preterist approach.

I’m not convinced any explanation about dual fulfillment of prophecy would be an acceptable one for readers here, though partial-preterism resolves the issues for me. I haven’t settled on an exact answer—whether “coming on the clouds” means with authority as referenced in Old Testament examples, or perhaps Josephus’ account of chariots in the clouds at the destruction of the temple.

Something I’ve been thinking about is reverse engineering the book, which leaves some loose ends. Like why are there future expectations if the prophecy was supposed to be entirely fulfilled in 70? If the Gospels were retroactive and designed to explain the destruction of Jerusalem, why leave in things that create such problems? Why not write a much cleaner prophecy that unmistakably ends with the destruction of the temple?
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Re: WHO or WHICH is most important?

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Limnor wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2026 10:54 pm
Why not write a much cleaner prophecy that unmistakably ends with the destruction of the temple?

Again, it could not be more clear that in the last time (last days), the very temple built by Israel that was graced by the presence of Jesus would one day be polluted by AntiChrist forces: “so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.” At this juncture, the Second Coming was to be be realized! Israel would then be saved and Christ would reign supreme. Not so! The temple was razed forever and Israel was left without a Messiah and a temple to this very day, 2026 AD.

Christ is not coming back, ever. Game over.

I so testify this is so. I know this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Absolute pure knowledge. By POWER I TESTIFY!

Amen.
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Re: WHO or WHICH is most important?

Post by bill4long »

Limnor wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2026 10:54 pm
I’ve been reading Origen’s response to Celsus, who makes a similar argument about Jesus “coming on the clouds” as a failed prophecy. There are interesting parallels, and Origen seems to take a partial-preterist approach.

I’m not convinced any explanation about dual fulfillment of prophecy would be an acceptable one for readers here, though partial-preterism resolves the issues for me. I haven’t settled on an exact answer—whether “coming on the clouds” means with authority as referenced in Old Testament examples, or perhaps Josephus’ account of chariots in the clouds at the destruction of the temple.

Something I’ve been thinking about is reverse engineering the book, which leaves some loose ends. Like why are there future expectations if the prophecy was supposed to be entirely fulfilled in 70? If the Gospels were retroactive and designed to explain the destruction of Jerusalem, why leave in things that create such problems? Why not write a much cleaner prophecy that unmistakably ends with the destruction of the temple?
Are you trying to "resolve" it by following where the data leads as honestly (with yourself) as possible, or trying to make it fit a religious commitment? Just curious. I'll say this as a personal testimony: the drag of cog-dis gets tiresome. It took me into my late 50s to fully accept what really is the obvious. I judge no one, except obvious con artists and grifters. It's a great relief to accept the reality of the situation when it comes to New Testament reliability. Enjoy the journey.
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