WHO or WHICH is most important?

[Limnor]

Are you trying to "resolve" it by following where the data leads as honestly (with yourself) as possible, or trying to make it fit a religious commitment? Just curious. I'll say this as a personal testimony: the drag of cog-dis gets tiresome. It took me into my late 50s to fully accept what really is the obvious. I judge no one, except obvious con artists and grifters. It's a great relief to accept the reality of the situation when it comes to New Testament reliability. Enjoy the journey.

That’s a fair question. I’m trying to follow the evidence where it leads, not protect a predetermined conclusion—and yes, it’s for myself and not to convince anyone else. I actually enjoy the thought process and challenges that help me define what it is I actually believe. I think I’ve said elsewhere before that I think it is valuable to challenge your faith.

What keeps me looking is that the data doesn’t seem one-sided. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple occurred within the generation Jesus addressed, which is one reason partial preterist interpretations continue to exist. On the other hand, there are passages that appear to point beyond 70AD and raise legitimate questions.

So I wouldn’t say I’ve reached the point where the answer is “obvious” in either direction. I’m still weighing the evidence and trying to be honest about both the strengths and weaknesses of the competing explanations.

This probably isn’t the right place for it, but I’m very interested in what Josephus wrote about what he claims was seen in the clouds. I don’t think my view on it has been much explored, and it’s definitely not orthodox, but I’ve wondered if there is more to that historical account.

Why not write a much cleaner prophecy that unmistakably ends with the destruction of the temple?

Again, it could not be more clear that in the “last time” (last days), the very temple built by Israel that was graced by the presence of Jesus would one day be polluted by AntiChrist forces: “so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.” At this juncture, the Second Coming was to be be realized! Israel would then be saved and Christ would reign supreme. Not so! The temple was razed forever and Israel was left without a Messiah and a temple to this very day, 2026 AD.

Christ is not coming back, ever. Game over.

I so testify this is so. I know this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Absolute pure knowledge. By POWER I TESTIFY!

Amen.

I think you’re assuming the passage can only have a single fulfillment. I’m not convinced that’s how biblical prophecy always works.

I did smile a little at the testimony format. The irony isn’t lost on me.

Are you trying to "resolve" it by following where the data leads as honestly (with yourself) as possible, or trying to make it fit a religious commitment?

Wanted to follow up here: I don’t really have a religious commitment. Whatever difficulties may exist with prophecy or New Testament reliability, I don’t see much difficulty with teachings like “come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden” or “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

In fact, one of the things that still resonates with me is the idea that if I am completely forgiven, then perhaps I should completely forgive others. Whether every theological claim is correct is a separate question, but I don’t find those teachings burdensome or intellectually threatening.

[Shulem]

As far as Jesus was concerned, there was one temple, the one he personally attended and there was one heavenly throne, the one his Father sat upon:

And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

Christ reminded the Jews of horrible things that had occurred in the past and speaking to the Jews he warned about more horrible things that were to take place in their times and the very near future:

Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Christ correctly predicted how the temple would again be torn down by enemies of God:

And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Christ predicted that in that generation he would come again and the world would end and he would reign:

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Christ continued to prophesy (Matt 24) and predict how the end would take place (“but the end is not yet”) and that his followers would then know that he is “even at the doors” by which he encouraged the people to “endure unto the end” which would occur after the destruction of the temple. He told of great tribulations that would take place during that generation but “those days shall be shortened” in order for salvation to be realized. He specifically said that “This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”

The future destruction of the Jerusalem temple is the key, the very one built and maintained by the authority of prophets of the Old Testament -- the building in which Zacharias was slain between the temple and the altar. That is the very temple in which St John indicated the AntiChrist would sit in which God would be mocked. Then Christ will come and everyone will see it!

The so-called beast or AntiChrist that LittleNipper refers to is outside Jesus’s prophetic timeline and is a figment of the imagination of modern Christians who are desperately trying to keep the religion alive!

[Shulem]

I think you’re assuming the passage can only have a single fulfillment. I’m not convinced that’s how biblical prophecy always works.

Christ referred to a single generation in which all things would be fulfilled prior to his Second Coming. One (singular) generation, not many (plural). The prophecy failed. But credit him for getting the destruction of the temple correct. That was inevitable. All buildings eventually come down. Christ knew that.

[Shulem]

Are you trying to "resolve" it by following where the data leads as honestly (with yourself) as possible, or trying to make it fit a religious commitment? Just curious. I'll say this as a personal testimony: the drag of cog-dis gets tiresome. It took me into my late 50s to fully accept what really is the obvious. I judge no one, except obvious con artists and grifters. It's a great relief to accept the reality of the situation when it comes to New Testament reliability. Enjoy the journey.

Thank you for being here and for your contributions to this thread.

[Shulem]

...Jesus “coming on the clouds”
...I haven’t settled on an exact answer—whether “coming on the clouds” means

It seems to me the whole purpose of the clouds was to serve as a stage in which to stand on so EVERYONE down below could see him in full glory.

Right?

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

St Paul told the Thessalonians that the surviving Christians would rapture up into heaven with Jesus:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

St John envisioned those still living who crucified Christ would see him come in the clouds which echos what Christ said previously to the Jews that “Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man.”

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

All of this, of course, is further evidence that Jesus prophesied of the fulfillment of his return to take place in the first century, AD.

[bill4long]

Matt 23:21,22 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

Contrast that with:

Yet the Most High does not dwell in houses made with hands; as the prophet says, 'Heaven is my throne, and earth my footstool. What house will you build for me, says the Lord, or what is the place of my rest? -- Acts 7:48

The first mistake that people make is to assume the New Testament is inerrant and univocal. It isn't by a long a shot. A commitment to these assumptions leads to all sorts of obscene contortions that people of reason and good sense don't otherwise run their lives by. The second mistake they make is they don't let the texts speak for themselves. The apocalyptic prophecies of Mark, Matthew and Luke are clear as a bell when allowed to speak on their own without apologetic eisegetical molestation.

[bill4long]

Thank you for being here and for your contributions to this thread.

You bet.

[Shulem]

Please recall the faith promoting fictitious conversation between resurrected Jesus and his competing apostles in which Peter questioned the Lord about John’s duration in the ministry, whereafter it is positively confirmed twice (John 21:22,23) that unlike Peter, John would continue to minister till the Second Coming:

If I will that he tarry till I come

This is proof that the apostles fully expected Christ to come during John’s life and that Peter need not compare himself or wonder about which of them is the greatest.

[LittleNipper]

Why not write a much cleaner prophecy that unmistakably ends with the destruction of the temple?

Again, it could not be more clear that in the “last time” (last days), the very temple built by Israel that was graced by the presence of Jesus would one day be polluted by AntiChrist forces: “so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.” At this juncture, the Second Coming was to be be realized! Israel would then be saved and Christ would reign supreme. Not so! The temple was razed forever and Israel was left without a Messiah and a temple to this very day, 2026 AD.

Christ is not coming back, ever. Game over.

I so testify this is so. I know this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Absolute pure knowledge. By POWER I TESTIFY!

Amen.

There will be built a Third Temple to fulfill the following prophecies:

Daniel 9:24-27: The prophecy outlines "seventy weeks" and mentions an anointed one being cut off. Implying the reinstatement of sacrifices and offerings, which requires a physical Temple structure at Jerusalem.
Matthew 24:15: Jesus refers to the "abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place". This implies a physical, functioning Temple will exist in the end times where an anti-God figure will desecrate the sanctuary.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4: The Apostle Paul speaks of the "man of lawlessness" who will oppose God and "sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."Revelation 11:1-2: The Apostle John is told to measure the temple of God and the altar, suggesting a physical structure will exist during the first half of the seven-year tribulation period.

[Shulem]

There will be built a Third Temple to fulfill the following prophecies:

John dreamed a dream (smoked opium?) and recorded his own prophecies that will never happen on planet earth. Pure religious fiction. Satanic in nature!

Daniel 9:24-27: The prophecy outlines "seventy weeks" and mentions an anointed one being cut off. Implying the reinstatement of sacrifices and offerings, which requires a physical Temple structure at Jerusalem.

Obviously, Daniel was not a Christian and and was solely devoted to animal sacrifice. The New testament gospel (Hebrews 10) makes it perfectly clear that blood sacrifice was finalized through Christ’s sacrifice and animal sacrifices were forever discontinued. The Jews are not Christians and are unable to build a temple to the glory of Christ! The first century AD came and went as did the Christians who were suppose to fulfill prophecy. BIG FAIL!

Matthew 24:15: Jesus refers to the "abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place". This implies a physical, functioning Temple will exist in the end times where an anti-God figure will desecrate the sanctuary.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4: The Apostle Paul speaks of the "man of lawlessness" who will oppose God and "sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."Revelation 11:1-2: The Apostle John is told to measure the temple of God and the altar, suggesting a physical structure will exist during the first half of the seven-year tribulation period.

Again, the end times ended nearly 2,000 years ago as demonstrated earlier in this thread. It’s over! You modern day Christians cannot resurrect failed prophecies and fit them into your own time line. Nor can you change Egypt’s true chronology to fit biblical myths. It doesn’t work that way except in your own mind.

Further, Jesus said nothing about a third temple; that came from the deluded mind of John who obviously was wacked out on something. His so-called revelation is utterly destructive -- nonsense.