If plates then God

[Res Ipsa]

At this point please keep the conversation/discussion pointed towards the plates delivered by the angel Moroni.

Otherwise, this thread is going to go on FOREVER. I have other things to do besides going off on side roads and rabbit trails.

Maybe it would be well if I exited and let others go down those paths at this point…

I’ll hop back in if I can see we’re on topic and not simply rehashing stuff we’ve already talked about.

That is tedious and unproductive.

Thanks for the interesting conversation.

Until later.

Regards,
MG

I'll defer to the thread starter, who I believe is drumdude as to whether my counter arguments to your claim of plates but not too much plates is necessary for the plan of salvation is within the scope of the thread.

[drumdude]

Mormons can really rationalize anything.

You start with the assumption the church is true and do whatever mental gymnastics are necessary to support it.

A number of years ago I chose to believe in a personal creator God. For me, I look to find those things in the world that point towards that God.

The church fits within that paradigm. Not perfectly…from where I sit…but enough to keep on keeping on.

I have a concern for those that jump ship prematurely or jump ship and the to then inverse of what you describe. That is, look for reasons and do the mental gymnastics necessary to rationalize staying out of the church.

Regards,
MG

I think there are better ways to worship God, Mormonism is up there with 7th day Adventist and Jehovas Witness. Way too far off the mainstream.

[drumdude]

At this point please keep the conversation/discussion pointed towards the plates delivered by the angel Moroni.

Otherwise, this thread is going to go on FOREVER. I have other things to do besides going off on side roads and rabbit trails.

Maybe it would be well if I exited and let others go down those paths at this point…

I’ll hop back in if I can see we’re on topic and not simply rehashing stuff we’ve already talked about.

That is tedious and unproductive.

Thanks for the interesting conversation.

Until later.

Regards,
MG

I'll defer to the thread starter, who I believe is drumdude as to whether my counter arguments to your claim of plates but not too much plates is necessary for the plan of salvation is within the scope of the thread.

I don’t have the same problem with derailment that many do. Discuss what you want to discuss.

It does tend to get bogged down when there are multiple points of discussion at once, but you guys are welcome to pick and choose which ones to keep discussing.

[Res Ipsa]

I'll defer to the thread starter, who I believe is drumdude as to whether my counter arguments to your claim of plates but not too much plates is necessary for the plan of salvation is within the scope of the thread.

I don’t have the same problem with derailment that many do. Discuss what you want to discuss.

It does tend to get bogged down when there are multiple points of discussion at once, but you guys are welcome to pick and choose which ones to keep discussing.

Thanks!

[Philo Sofee]

Good, because it is one heckuva education watching Res turn MG's arguments assumptions into the pretzels they are, and MG squirming to avoid the obvious problematic conclusions Mormon theology naturally leads him to if he were half as honest at taking it all the way out to the conclusions, which his own leaders never do, therefore MG imagines he doesn't have to either. It is why Mormonism has lost all credibility of any kind.

[MG 2.0]

I do not claim to be a God for whom all things are possible. I am neither all knowing nor all powerful. I don't have a preferred world.

Wouldn’t your preferred world be one in which children and other innocents are neither raped or harmed in any way?

I would prefer that innocent children not be beaten and raped.

So in your preferred world innocent children would not be beaten or raped. Without saying this explicitly in your first statement I suppose this would be your preferred world if you indeed had a preferred world? So did I answer the question I asked you correctly?

Does your God have the power to create such a world with free agency sufficient to fulfill the plan of salvation?

If God is going to create a world in which free agents are going to make all kinds of choices including those choices that harm or maim others there would need to be away to provide salvation. That comes through the Atonement and sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

But I’ve already said that.

Essentially where the problem lies and where we’re talking past each other is that you don’t see the Atonement of Christ as being infinite and eternal in it scope to redeem and sanctify all those that come unto him.

You’re looking at it from a purely secular perspective.

We will continue to talk past each other because this hurdle of understanding and communication cannot be breached through pure logic or worldly wisdom. It’s beyond your ability to comprehend and also mine.

You find fault with a God who you believe cannot save all his children including those that are acted upon by the evil misdeeds of others. There is no way to get past this dilemma I as far as me trying to explain to you that everything will be OK. Although in the here and now because of God given agency it’s not OK.

Given all the available freedom and choice in the world, are beaten, raped and tortured children necessary to the plan of salvation?

Free agency and absolute ability to choose are necessary to the plan of salvation.

What I mean by going around in circles and continuing your pretzel like logic will very probably be manifest in your responding post.

Although now, maybe not. I spilled the beans.

I’m sure that by the rules of the logic that you are employing you are finding reasons to think that a god ought to give full disclosure and not leave us in the dark or looking through a glass darkly. But that would separate us from the platform of making true choices without the ‘handicap’ of having everything served to us on a silver platter.

I think we will continue to talk past each other Res Ipsa. I was teasing you a bit somewhere in the last few posts in regards to ad hominem. I think you may have taken me too seriously. Truthfully, my interactions with you and others have demonstrated, at least to me, the fragility of confidence manifest by those that leave the church. They are always wondering if they may have ‘blown it’ and are constantly on the defensive. I’ve seen that in you on this thread.

I’m calling like I see it. Of course someone will come back and say I’m simply projecting. I think that trope has been used a few times already.

I think it’s pretty simple. The story of the plates is either true or false. Coming back to Monet and individual dots that connect to the whole. From my perspective the part of the restoration with the narrative of the plates…or an artifact…surviving the eons of time in order to act as a ‘witness’ to the witness makes sense. God has always done his work through witnesses. It’s all part of a large canvas God has been painting for ages.

Anyway, enough said. Thanks for your viewpoint. I think you are mistaken in the trajectory you’ve taken. But I respect the fact that you have total and complete freedom/agency to do so. I don’t think anything the less of you as a decent human being.

I’ll bet you’re an awesome husband and father.

Regards,
MG

[tagriffy]

So you’re saying Joseph and the witnesses lacked the kind of faith that matters?

I think they were under greater accountability because of the knowledge they had. Where much is given much is expected. That is why most of humanity is left in a state of having to choose rather than having everything provided on a silver platter. It’s a balance between accountability/knowledge/faith. Our choices or lack thereof are the catalyst for what comes after. Greater light and knowledge or less.

But we are free to choose. Either in the here and now or the hereafter.

The faith/knowledge quotient that you personally are acquainted with will have a direct impact and/or have implications as to your accountability before God. Your judgement before Him may be held to a different standard than mine. Mine will be held to a different standard than another. But those judgements as they are associated with accountability/knowledge/faith are in God’s hands.

If all of us had access to hard fast evidence that the plates were real and from God we would all have to be judged by the same standard and there would be greater accountability and essentially the same judgement for all. Being as we all find ourselves in various circumstances, that would be unfair. As it is, the accountability for each individual across the planet and throughout history is attached to the knowledge/faith formula by which God determines our accountability for our actions.

The judgement/accountability processes in time and eternity are going to be different for those that have greater knowledge and opportunity than for those that don’t.

It’s only fair. And it’s what I would expect of a loving God.

Regards,
MG

According to the Book of Mormon, we are already at the point where we will all have to be judged by the same standard. See, e.g., 2 Ne. 25:21-22. Access to the plates doesn't change that.

[tagriffy]

Mormons can really rationalize anything.

You start with the assumption the church is true and do whatever mental gymnastics are necessary to support it.

A number of years ago I chose to believe in a personal creator God. For me, I look to find those things in the world that point towards that God.

The church fits within that paradigm. Not perfectly…from where I sit…but enough to keep on keeping on.

I have a concern for those that jump ship prematurely or jump ship and the to then inverse of what you describe. That is, look for reasons and do the mental gymnastics necessary to rationalize staying out of the church.

Regards,
MG

Look MG! You've done it again! You've again demonstrated you have everything that you need! Please, please, please, let it sink in!

[MG 2.0]

A number of years ago I chose to believe in a personal creator God. For me, I look to find those things in the world that point towards that God.

The church fits within that paradigm. Not perfectly…from where I sit…but enough to keep on keeping on.

I have a concern for those that jump ship prematurely or jump ship and the to then inverse of what you describe. That is, look for reasons and do the mental gymnastics necessary to rationalize staying out of the church.

Regards,
MG

I think there are better ways to worship God, Mormonism is up there with 7th day Adventist and Jehovas Witness. Way too far off the mainstream.

I find it interesting that you, Res Ipsa and other ex members or lapsed Mormons keep coming back here of all places rather than simply finding that “better way” to either worship or not worship and focus on that.

Something other than ‘play time’ keeps drawing you folks back here. It’s like you’re not really sure of yourselves or you just can’t step off the playing field.

I’ve already said why I pop here at periodically. Someone has to provide a balance to the one voice echo chamber of discontent that is constantly made manifest on this board. And I like to see whether or not my faith stands up to scrutiny. So far, so good.

But I can’t, for the life of me, determine exactly what draws you all back here.

Regards,
MG

[tagriffy]

See, perfectly on topic. All of it is an argument to refute your claim about the need for plates, but not too much plates. It's much more complex than taGriffey's argument my counterexample, but also much more fun.

tagriffy. As far as I've been able to determine, the Griffeys are an entirely different clan. Please feel free to call me Tim.