If plates then God

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

If the plates were available and were used/proven as evidence for the Book of Mormon being the work of God we would no longer have the kind of faith that matters.

So you’re saying Joseph and the witnesses lacked the kind of faith that matters?

Good point. And strange. God whisks aways the golden plates, but leaves other artifacts of his seemingly miraculous interventions. What a fickle test of faith.

“And when I am far on the road to conviction, and eight men, be they grammatical or otherwise, come forward and tell me that they have seen the plates too; and not only seen those plates but "hefted" them, I am convinced. I could not feel more satisfied and at rest if the entire Whitmer family had testified.” - Twain

- Doc

[malkie]

That you and Res Ipsa would even entertain that the Book of Mormon is the product of the father of lies and misery is not sustainable as one observes the growth of the church and the impact for good it has had in the lives of millions of souls.

If the church stops growing is that evidence to the contrary?

There is not, and cannot be, evidence to the contrary.

Failure to grow would only show that something else (that also meant that the church was true) was at play.

The church shrank in the 1850s, but was probably just getting rid of apostates, or some such.

It is always a heads-I-win-tails-you-lose proposition.

[drumdude]

If the church stops growing is that evidence to the contrary?

There is not, and cannot be, evidence to the contrary.

Failure to grow would only show that something else (that also meant that the church was true) was at play.

The church shrank in the 1850s, but was probably just getting rid of apostates, or some such.

It is always a heads-I-win-tails-you-lose proposition.

Yep. Midnight Mormons were accusing the brethren of outright unrighteousness dominion last week. This week they’re back to normal. There’s nothing that can’t be rationalized and explained away.

The best you can do is keep pointing it out to them and hope someday it gets through.

[Res Ipsa]

That you and Res Ipsa would even entertain that the Book of Mormon is the product of the father of lies and misery is not sustainable as one observes the growth of the church and the impact for good it has had in the lives of millions of souls.

I don't know tagriffy so can't speak for him, but I can speak for Res Ipsa -- Res Ipsa doesn't not believe in the devil, MG. Most people in modern times with minimal education levels do not believe in a devil. Res is speaking in the hypothetical. In fact, many times have church leaders said that either the Book of Mormon is the word of God, or the greatest and most evil deception by Ole Scratch yada yada yada -- are you going to say you've never heard these quotes? Shall I look up an example for you?

I believe the point Res and probably Tag is making to you regards the problem of induction. Even if we had videotape of the angel coming down, or if even if the angel appeared to us personally, there are options other than God -- an alien pulling a hoax, for instance. In fact, God isn't even necessarily the best explanation. God really needs to take a basic class in epistemology before putting so much at stake for the mortals he fools around with. Anyway, I believe these responses are to you, who is trying to lock in meaningful verification as absolute proof that leaves no room for faith. And so you're getting responses that show there is still room for faith.

How you go in circles. Because you say seeing the actual plates would leave no room for faith (after trumpeting about the witnesses who saw the plates), and then turn around and say that the many lives blessed fills all gaps and proves the Book of Mormon true -- no faith required.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that you guys are a bit whacko in even looking at this as a possibility.

You are are now calling LDS General Authorities and prophets wackos.

Spot on, which is why you are the Dean and I but a mouthpiece.

MG 2.0 is running circles and changing directions so rapidly, it's a wonder he doesn't run into himself and suffer two concussions. Take a look at this:

It’s a bit frustrating over time as I see a shotgun [sic] approach…narrow trajectory…on each topic that comes up.

[Emphasis added.] Leaving aside the mangled metaphor, this is the same guy who just got done saying things like:

You CAN’T have real plates.

NO MATTER WHAT.

Real plates would change your whole worldview.

Right?

If plates, then God. And the God of Mormonism no less.

He's been laser focussed on the plates and on an interview of one person for pages and pages, yet complains that everyone else is taking too narrow a focus.

He asserts that the angel leaving the plates on earth would subvert the plan of salvation and destroy free agency, then turns around and claims that it is so obvious that the church is an institution of God that one must be crazy not to see that. Why doesn't that obvious nature of the church subvert the plan of salvation and destroy free agency? In fact, wouldn't be necessary that the church do some evil in order give us true free agency? It seems so. Wasn't it MG 2.0 who argued that sexually abused children are an unfortunate but necessary consequence of giving the abusers the free agency to abuse? What is demanding that its poverty stricken members pay tithing instead of feeding their children and accepting their gold fillings as payment if not evil incarnate? How can the treatment of Adam Steed by the church after doing more to prevent child abuse in scouting than the LDS church ever did be viewed as anything other than evil?

Under MG 2.0's assertions about the plan of salvation, the LDS church cannot be a clear, unambiguous good. Otherwise, the plan of salvation is bankrupt. It would be so hard to reject the church that we would be robbed of free agency. So, the church must cause enough harm to make it a fair test, not of evidence, but of faith. And that makes it entirely rational to raise the possibility that Smith and his church was a clever move to persuade us poor mortals into believing that his church is God's one and only "true" church on the face of the earth. After all, doesn't Mormon satan win if he deceives us and keeps us from exaltation?

MG 2.0's 100% ad hominem attack is his standard MO when faced with an argument to which he cannot respond with reason or evidence. He can talk about Monet all he wants, but that does not make a Monet painting an appropriate metaphor. No consistent, coherent pattern of reasoning emerges from his brushstrokes other than "The Church is True" in comic sans.

[MG 2.0]

If the plates were available and were used/proven as evidence for the Book of Mormon being the work of God we would no longer have the kind of faith that matters.

So you’re saying Joseph and the witnesses lacked the kind of faith that matters?

I think they were under greater accountability because of the knowledge they had. Where much is given much is expected. That is why most of humanity is left in a state of having to choose rather than having everything provided on a silver platter. It’s a balance between accountability/knowledge/faith. Our choices or lack thereof are the catalyst for what comes after. Greater light and knowledge or less.

But we are free to choose. Either in the here and now or the hereafter.

The faith/knowledge quotient that you personally are acquainted with will have a direct impact and/or have implications as to your accountability before God. Your judgement before Him may be held to a different standard than mine. Mine will be held to a different standard than another. But those judgements as they are associated with accountability/knowledge/faith are in God’s hands.

If all of us had access to hard fast evidence that the plates were real and from God we would all have to be judged by the same standard and there would be greater accountability and essentially the same judgement for all. Being as we all find ourselves in various circumstances, that would be unfair. As it is, the accountability for each individual across the planet and throughout history is attached to the knowledge/faith formula by which God determines our accountability for our actions.

The judgement/accountability processes in time and eternity are going to be different for those that have greater knowledge and opportunity than for those that don’t.

It’s only fair. And it’s what I would expect of a loving God.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

MG 2.0 is running circles and changing directions so rapidly, it's a wonder he doesn't run into himself and suffer two concussions. Take a look at this:

It’s a bit frustrating over time as I see a shotgun [sic] approach…narrow trajectory…on each topic that comes up.

Taking a narrow view…trajectory…and blowing the crap out of the object within the sights without taking into account everything else out on the perimeter and/or periphery.

Again, my reference to Monet and taking a myopic view rather than looking at the larger picture. Monet’s process was not to take the brush and push with all his might on one paint dab or spot. He would look to see how it fit in within the overall painting he was constructing.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

[MG] claims that it is so obvious that the church is an institution of God that one must be crazy not to see that.

I haven’t made that claim at all. Unfortunately you are using this false claim to then set up a strawman argument.

Regards,
MG

[Rivendale]

This thread sounds more and more like Pareidolia. Kerry Muhlestein does something similar where he assumes something is true and then finds information to justify his preconceived motivated reasoning.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

MG 2.0 is running circles and changing directions so rapidly, it's a wonder he doesn't run into himself and suffer two concussions. Take a look at this:

Taking a narrow view…trajectory…and blowing the crap out of the object within the sights without taking into account everything else out on the perimeter and/or periphery.

Again, my reference to Monet and taking a myopic view rather than looking at the larger picture. Monet’s process was not to take the brush and push with all his might on one paint dab or spot. He would look to see how it fit in within the overall painting he was constructing.

Regards,
MG

He would also think you’re a raving lunatic and cultist.

Stupid hicks. Sad.

- Doc

[MG 2.0]

Wasn't it MG 2.0 who argued that sexually abused children are an unfortunate but necessary consequence of giving the abusers the free agency to abuse?

Abusers do have agency to to choose, yes. “Unfortunate but necessary”? No, I wouldn’t put it like that at all.

Please don’t put words in my mouth.

The crime/insanity associated with sexually abused children is reprehensible and should be punished. As one of the Republican candidates for President expressed last night in the debate…the death penalty should be on the table for those monsters that commit these atrocities.

You have crossed the line, Res Ipsa.

Regards,
MG