If plates then God

[tagriffy]

It diesn't seem like mg will aswer this, but even his refusal is indicative of a problem i find typical in the use of mopologetics in an argument-- the fact that the evidence used to support one argument are not consistent with how others use that same evidence across various other arguments.

Add in the fact that Hales misused a reference from Lucy Mack Smith to incorrectly attempt to support his point and mopologetics becomes even more problematic.

In a nutshell, Hales picks out some elements of Smith's storytelling and argues they are not in the B of M, while ignoring the fact that the next four elements he 'storytells' absolutely are in the book. In fact, the Dales refer specifically to and rely heavily on all 4 in their egregiously incorrect statistical support of the book's historicity.

So, either Smith's storytelling elements NOT being in the book are proof Smith couldn't have written it (Hales) OR, Smith's storytelling elements BEING in the book are proof Smith couldn't have written it (the Dales.)

Can't be both. Plus, Hales fudged the truth, which means the article mg is lauding (even though he has posted in this thread his disagreement with one of Hales' main points!) is not a good reference, but simply another of the bad mopologetics the Interpreter doesn't peer review, but prints anyway.

That is not necessarily a problem. Even in mainstream scholarship you're going to find drastically different conclusions even given the same evidence and the same framework. An example that comes to my mind is the divergent view of how Genesis 14 fits or doesn't fit in the Documentary Hypothesis. Some commentators, such as Speiser think it is independent and shows Abraham actually existed. Others think it fits well into either J or E.

[Marcus]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_l ... seph_Smith

It seems the promise of finding buried treasure, tales gold plates and visions came at a time when Joseph was well aware the family was broke and needed some income.

The primary temptation Joseph had to overcome when initially shown the plates was to squelch the impulse to use the plates as a source of gaining immediate wealth. This was one of the reasons he had to wait four years before he could be trusted to obtain the plates.

[ <ad hom not quoted> ] ...Joseph had tutoring sessions with Moroni in which he was given instructions and one might imagine some inkling(s) as to the historical narrative contained on the plates....

That would be an incorrect assessment of Hales' position (whom you have recommended in this thread but not quoted) regarding the Lucy Mack memories, based on his most recent article in the Interpreter:

Lucy Mack Smith, Joseph’s mother, describes his storytelling inclinations around 1823 when he was in his seventeenth year:

During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.62

If Joseph’s stories originated in his imagination, this recollection is evidence of his creativity as a youth. They include references to the “ancient inhabitants of this continent,” including “their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode,” details not included in the narrative of the Book of Mormon.

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... y-sources/

[bolding added to illustrate the contradiction.]

It's difficult to know what point you are actually trying to make, when you contradict your own references within the same conversation.

[MG 2.0]

IHAQ, you now have two reading assignments. Do your homework!

Regards,
MG

Didn't think you would… <sigh> Okay, you’re out.

Are you going to answer my questions? For those there is no reading assignment.

Easy peasy.

Again, stonewalling.

Afraid to do a couple of little reading assignments. Sheesh.

Regards,
MG

[tagriffy]

Go to Lucy Mack Smith’s “History of Joseph Smith”, Chapter 18.

Regards,
MG

I don’t own the book. Can you provide the quote that supports what you said?

Have a free copy!

[tagriffy]

I wonder if the Church's free copy is Lucy Smith's original version, which Brigham Young called a "tissue of lies" and ordered all Saints to destroy their copies of; or if it's the Joseph F. Smith "corrected" version that helped maintain the legitimacy of the Utah corporation church.

My direct link is to the 1853 edition.

[Res Ipsa]

MG purporting to give out "reading assignments" is the most hilarious thing I've seen in a while.

[tagriffy]

Since we’ve been discussing the likelihood of whether or not Joseph could have written the Book of Mormon on his own and the correlation this has with angels, plates, and God, I thought I might post this graphic that illustrates some of the things Brian Hales points out in the link I provided upthread.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/wp- ... FINAL2.pdf

This was from a FAIR Conference in 2021.

Brian Hales was the presenter. All in a nutshell.

Regards,
MG

The link returns a 404 error.

[Marcus]

It diesn't seem like mg will aswer this, but even his refusal is indicative of a problem i find typical in the use of mopologetics in an argument-- the fact that the evidence used to support one argument are not consistent with how others use that same evidence across various other arguments.

Add in the fact that Hales misused a reference from Lucy Mack Smith to incorrectly attempt to support his point and mopologetics becomes even more problematic.

In a nutshell, Hales picks out some elements of Smith's storytelling and argues they are not in the B of M, while ignoring the fact that the next four elements he 'storytells' absolutely are in the book. In fact, the Dales refer specifically to and rely heavily on all 4 in their egregiously incorrect statistical support of the book's historicity.

So, either Smith's storytelling elements NOT being in the book are proof Smith couldn't have written it (Hales) OR, Smith's storytelling elements BEING in the book are proof Smith couldn't have written it (the Dales.)

Can't be both. Plus, Hales fudged the truth, which means the article mg is lauding (even though he has posted in this thread his disagreement with one of Hales' main points!) is not a good reference, but simply another of the bad mopologetics the Interpreter doesn't peer review, but prints anyway.

That is not necessarily a problem. Even in mainstream scholarship you're going to find drastically different conclusions even given the same evidence and the same framework. An example that comes to my mind is the divergent view of how Genesis 14 fits or doesn't fit in the Documentary Hypothesis. Some commentators, such as Speiser think it is independent and shows Abraham actually existed. Others think it fits well into either J or E.

Excellent point about disagreement in general, which was why I was asking mg why he recommended a source he actively wrote that he disagreed with, all on the same day. However, eventually, the overall body of arguments have to be consistent to make a consistent point. That's my objection to the mopologetic approach.

Regarding the fudging of the use of the quote, I don't see that as an acceptable argument.

Hales picks out some elements of Smith's storytelling [in one sentence] and argues they are not in the B of M, while ignoring the fact that the next four elements he 'storytells' [still from that one sentence] absolutely are in the book.

That's cherry picking-- and Hales has the audacity to do it from within a single sentence! That type of analysis shouldn't have gotten past peer review.

[MG 2.0]

The primary temptation Joseph had to overcome when initially shown the plates was to squelch the impulse to use the plates as a source of gaining immediate wealth. This was one of the reasons he had to wait four years before he could be trusted to obtain the plates.

[ <ad hom not quoted> ] ...Joseph had tutoring sessions with Moroni in which he was given instructions and one might imagine some inkling(s) as to the historical narrative contained on the plates....

That would be an incorrect assessment of Hales' position (whom you have recommended in this thread but not quoted) regarding the Lucy Mack memories, based on his most recent article in the Interpreter:

Lucy Mack Smith, Joseph’s mother, describes his storytelling inclinations around 1823 when he was in his seventeenth year:

During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.62

If Joseph’s stories originated in his imagination, this recollection is evidence of his creativity as a youth. They include references to the “ancient inhabitants of this continent,” including “their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode,” details not included in the narrative of the Book of Mormon.

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... y-sources/

[bolding added to illustrate the contradiction.]

It's difficult to know what point you are actually trying to make, when you contradict your own references within the same conversation.

Paul Harvey, the rest of the story:

Although Lucy mentioned that Joseph spoke only occasionally, these family recitations could represent the tip of his expanding imagination iceberg and his attempts to hone oratorical skills. If so, other family members or acquaintances might have remembered, but only Lucy left a record. Joseph’s younger brother William later claimed that Joseph was incapable of authoring a “historey of a once enlightned people, their rise their progress, their origin, and [Page 16]their final over throw that once inhabited this american Continent.”63 William’s statement seems to contradict Lucy’s recollection or suggests that Joseph’s recitals did not include such details or did not impress all family members.
If imaginative tales commonly rolled from Joseph’s lips, or creative storytelling became a pastime as he prepared his mind and oratory skills for the 1829 Book of Mormon dictation, no one outside the family recalled him actively rehearsing.64 In 1834, Eber D. Howe published statements from twenty-two local residents and two “group statements” from the inhabitants of Palmyra and Manchester.65 In July 1880, newspaperman Frederick G. Mather compiled written recollections from twelve citizens of Susquehanna, Broome, and Chenango Counties, Pennsylvania.66 In 1888, Arthur Deming printed accounts from fourteen individuals in two volumes of Naked Truths about Mormonism.67 Many of these persons [Page 17]knew Joseph Smith Jr. personally, but none describe him engaging in the activities of a village bard or entertaining spectators with his recitals. Journalist James Gordon Bennett visited the Palmyra area in August of 1831 and recorded that Joseph Smith’s father was a “great story teller,” but wrote nothing similar concerning the younger Joseph.68

—Same Interpreter source

I’m not sure where you guys are trying to go with things at this point except to try and set up road blocks to that which is fairly obvious to the honest observer. Joseph Smith was not in a position to have written the Book of Mormon on his own. You to jump through something very large hoops and perform some gigantic acts of mental gymnastics to propose that he did.

Hey, that’s supposed to be my modus operandi.

Regards,
MG

[tagriffy]

But the complexity of some of these ‘poetry’ sequences in the Book of Mormon is one more bullet point to add into the unlikelihood that Joseph Smith cobbled the Book of Mormon together on his own.

Regards,
MG

How so?