Be careful what you wish for.

[Res Ipsa]

Without moderation, what do we do when rules are violated?

Start a "tribute" thread in another forum?

That's not far off the mark, Ceebs. When rules exist but are not enforced, people resort to self-help. in my opinion, from the perspective of a board owner, that's the last thing you want to happen. The rule breaking escalates as people respond tit for tat or massive overkill for tat, and the board simply breaks down as a place to discuss ideas. I'm happy to leave the decision to where any given thread belongs to Shades. If a thread's location is important to me, I will let Shades and future moderators know through the report function.

[canpakes]

Not seeing any evidence yet.

You won’t. He lied, and he’s stuck.

[Jersey Girl]

Not seeing any evidence yet.

You won’t. He lied, and he’s stuck.

Think?

[Res Ipsa]

We agree on this. We absolutely agree on this. We have agreed on this from the get-effing-go.

What we do not agree on however, is what are "piles of trolling and personal attacks." The point has been made over and over and your dodging and deflecting is making it more obvious not less. You do not only object to the moderation of trolling and personal attacks, you want MORE as long as it is by Doc Cam and in support of your ideology or agenda. You have not ever objected to pejorative racist insults and pejorative homosexism. You never will, as long as Doc Cam is a bully in support of your cause, you are silent and fine with it. You are not asking for moderation, you are asking Shades to help you by making critics go away and for Shades to help you by allowing your bully to stand tall and unopposed.

New Kid, I've squarely addressed every point you've ever tried to make with me. Your failure to read and understand the rules here has nothing to do with me. And there is no excuse for you essentially lying about what I want. It's not opposite day, New Kid.

Under the rules, both you and Doc Cam can troll your ever loving hearts out, as long as you do it in Spirit Prison. You just can't derail or personal attack in Paradise. Neither anyone else. That's what the rules say. They don't favor any specific poster or ideology.

I know you hate to be shown your black and white thinking, but when you divide the world of this board people who support Doc Cam and people who oppose Doc Cam, you're doing it in spades. I don't have to accept your black and white categories. In fact, you have no idea of what my opinions are of Doc Cam's posting style or whether I've discussed it with him. Because you assume -- which in this case makes and ass out of you and you.

Nothing I am suggesting would make a critic who is interested in something other than disrupting the ability of other people to have a discussion want to leave the board. If you are only here to disrupt others conversations, then I can understand why you might feel chased out.

How you get from "Shades, please enforce the rules as written evenly" to "Shades, please chase away the critics and help Doc Cam bully people" is just another example of your inability or unwillingness to even try to make a rational argument for your position.

[Lem]

Start a "tribute" thread in another forum?

That's not far off the mark, Ceebs. When rules exist but are not enforced, people resort to self-help. in my opinion, from the perspective of a board owner, that's the last thing you want to happen. The rule breaking escalates as people respond tit for tat or massive overkill for tat, and the board simply breaks down as a place to discuss ideas. I'm happy to leave the decision to where any given thread belongs to Shades....

Leaving the decision to Shades (and/or a mod) is an excellent point. If the mods decide that me explaining that the paradise trolling reminded me of grindael's situation and prompted me to start a thread for him leads to a mod conclusion that the Grindael tribute thread belongs in Spirit Paradise, then it should be moved. Additionally, I would hope all the rule breaking posts within it would eventually be separated out into Telestial (or spirit prison, depending on their decision). What would be left would still be a tribute to our friend, regardless of location.

We just need moderation to begin again.

You are a metaphorical pissboy too, Lem. You carry a big bucket for Doc Cam to piss in.

oh boy, do we. If only so Cult's favorite word usage can be grouped with other derailments.

[Res Ipsa]

You just happened to stumble in during a period when rules were being violated --

The only rule Doc Cam is breaking is posting in the wrong section of the board.

It is a slog but we keep moving this thing forward a little.

When Doc Cam calls someone "Xanax," he was fine, but he should have had that conversation in Prison. And everyone who was cool with this rule violation did what? Now, when someone comes along and merely says, "uh uh, not cool," Res et al scream, "OH MY damned GOD, WE NEED A MODERATOR TEAM! SOMEONE DIDN'T ACCEPT DOC CAM'S TERMS AND CONDITIONS AND WE NEED A MODERATOR RIGHT NOW."

(I am trying out Philo's yelling feature. How did I do? Did the all caps work?)

Not progress at all, New Kid. Get it though your thick head that I AM NOT A MODERATOR. I have no remit to follow everyone around the board and make a huge stink every time I think I see a rule violation. There is no way to do that without multiplying the disruption that the original violation has caused. You are exhibit A. Because you appointed yourself as board prophet calling people to repentance, you've done nothing but disrupt other people's conversations. (And don't offer Doc Cam as an excuse -- he's not here using your behavior as an excuse for his own.)

Were I a moderator, I would simply move a post that violated Spirit Paradise rules to Spirit Prison, together with any discussion of the violation itself. No fuss, no muss. The original substantive thread continues. The rule violation and its resulting disruption can be discussed in Spirit Prison. Everybody gets to have their say.

And don't straw man me by describing me as screaming for anything. I haven't and I'm not. I've expressed my opinion that the recent interruption in moderation should end, with the longstanding moderation practices here restored. The current absence of moderators is an aberration here, not the norm. The absence of moderators has been a topic of discussion here from time to time ever since EA (may his name be praised), who had been a moderator since the dawn of time (almost) disappeared. I have no idea why Shades waited this long to call for new moderators. But your presence here has apparently helped him to decide to restore the moderation that has been the norm around here. So, thanks for that, I guess.

[Res Ipsa]

No, wrong again. Once Shades gets the moderation re-started, the rules will apply to everyone, like they have in the past. Spirit Prison and Telestial are there for you to post in to your heart's content, but if moderation concludes that a post breaks the rules, including the derailment and personal attack ones, regardless of the author, it will be removed from Spirit Paradise and Terrestrial.

As someone who has seen about 5,456,321 personal attacks, I would suggest that your above post is pure nonsense!

Ceebs, there are specific reasons for that, which unfortunately I cannot discuss because it involves information I received as a moderator. Lem is correctly describing how moderation is supposed to work, and I expect that it will do so going forward. My own experience is that "personal attack" is a difficult rule to apply consistently, because it's a pretty subjective concept. There also used to be a "cleverness" exception to the rule, which I don't think is in the current rules. It's hard enough to draw the line between legitimate observation and personal attack without having to throw cleverness into the mix.

Keep in mind that, as Shades has posted recently, discussing a poster's motivation for their posts is on-topic in Paradise. The distinction between "permissible comment on a person's motivation" and "personal attack" is stupidly hard to figure out.

Lem's description of how the rules, as written, should work. The extent to which they actually work rests largely on the community's willingness to make at least a good faith attempt to stay within the rules as well as recognize that the moderator's job description is to enforce the spirit, not the letter of the rules. That means giving the mods slack to do their jobs.

[ceeboo]

The absence of moderators has been a topic of discussion here from time to time ever since EA (may his name be praised)

[Res Ipsa]

It is a slog but we keep moving this thing forward a little.

When Doc Cam calls someone "Xanax," he was fine, but he should have had that conversation in Prison. And everyone who was cool with this rule violation did what? Now, when someone comes along and merely says, "uh uh, not cool," Res et al scream, "OH MY damned GOD, WE NEED A MODERATOR TEAM! SOMEONE DIDN'T ACCEPT DOC CAM'S TERMS AND CONDITIONS AND WE NEED A MODERATOR RIGHT NOW."

(I am trying out Philo's yelling feature. How did I do? Did the all caps work?)

Incorrect again. Not everyone reads everywhere, but i am aware that I and others have made reports of what we considered to be rule violations on this new board that are still outstanding, due to our lack of a moderator. Also, not everyone feels comfortable reporting. I know that since I have three reports still outstanding since January, I'm not inclined to add more until the moderation issue is addressed. You are viewing the board at an unusual time.

For example, if we had a mod right now, I would report this:

pissboy, pay attention. You are wrong again. Just carry piss.

And this:

read better, pissboy.

And this:

You do know that pissboy is a metaphor, right? But you are a real pissboy.

Etc., etc., etc..

That's a good point, Lem. My own opinion is that it's important to notify someone has reported a post that their report has been considered and the moderator's decision. Sending reports into a black hole with no visible action or response sends the message that the moderators may be simply ignoring reports. The more the community uses the report system, the less disruption there will be to substantive conversations. So, encourage use of the report function, discourage use of self help (other than the ignore function).

[ceeboo]

What am I thinking right now? Am I considering telling you to go “F” yourself, or am I considering thanking you for a great post?

I got 10 bucks on "thanking him for a great post." ------- Because it was!