The "Official" Witnesses Trailer Drops

[Doctor Scratch]

Lol! DCP read our posts and has now decided that he’d prefer to argue with EV critics. He’d better watch out, though, because what if gemli decides to make the obvious comparison between the witnesses and other groups who’ve observed supernatural phenomena?

[Gadianton]

Lol! DCP read our posts and has now decided that he’d prefer to argue with EV critics.

Well, of course! it's EVs who gave him the idea of taking this line of argument to the extreme. If it weren't for Josh McDowell's "Evidence that demands a verdict" and more specifically, the "400 witnesses saw the resurrected Jesus" arguments he would have put the 3 witnesses in the back of his mental filing cabinet like everyone else in the Church does, and concentrated on the statistical impossibility of NHM.

You have to give him some credit here. If a person is guaranteed Jesus is the risen lord because the Bible says 400 people saw him in the sky, if eye witness testimony is that powerful, then should not the plates also be real given the witnesses?

[Moksha]

And naturally, Lou Midgley weighs in about gemli:

....his being nothing more than a meaningless glob with opinions.

That's a retired BYU professor and stalwart LDS. Setting the example for how contemptuously the 'other' should be viewed.

Gemli doesn't mind and hurling insults makes Dr. Midgley's day. He has been insulting people in defense of the Church for the last seven decades.

I wonder how Gemli could account for the last three episodes of Game of Thrones? Wouldn't Occam's Razor suggest that Loki had escaped from Asgard once again?

[Lem]

....hurling insults makes Dr. Midgley's day. He has been insulting people in defense of the Church for the last seven decades....

What an ugly way to live.

[Lem]

The more Peterson discusses this with gemli, the more fringe his witnesses movie comes across.

gemli > Jacob A. • 15 hours ago

It's not about the plates, really. Of course there were no plates, but every religion makes mention of divine artifacts that, if they were found, would do exactly what God wants people to do, which is believe in Him. But those artifacts are never found. There are many claims of artifacts, but claims aren't proof. They're what require proof.

People have been asking the "what if God came down and told me himself" question for a long time. The thing is, it's never happened. God would have the power to convince everyone of the One True Divine Creator and whatnot, but for some reason the test of faith requires believing some guy who tells you he saw God, and here's what He said.... What if the guy is mistaken? What if he's making it up? What if he think's he'd enjoy getting money and power, and didn't have any scruples to get in the way? Inquiring minds want to know....


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DanielPeterson Mod > gemli • 14 hours ago

gemli: "Of course there were no plates"

Based on purely secular, mundane, historical evidence alone, there almost certainly were plates.

Captain Obvious: "claims aren't proof. They're what require proof."

Nobody here thinks otherwise. You're doing battle with a straw man.

gemli: "People have been asking the "what if God came down and told me himself" question for a long time. The thing is, it's never happened. "

No. Wait! I'm sorry. There is somebody here who thinks that claims are proof. It's you!

I shouldn't have overlooked you, gemli.


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gemli > DanielPeterson • 2 hours ago • edited

"Almost certainly" is a claim that ought to be based on solid, demonstrable evidence. According to some people, there almost certainly were flying saucers that landed in the desert and probed the townsfolk. People from earlier centuries almost certainly saw ghosts, witches, demons and other frightful beings. Other religions believe that their chosen faith is almost--or more than almost--certain to be the one true faith.

Evidence claims that are passed back and forth between True Believers may be convincing to them, but they don't live in isolation. Nonbelievers view their conflicting "absolute certainties" of belief as quaint at best, and possibly harmful, if they prompt behaviors that run counter to social, societal or scientific norms.

Beliefs have consequences, especially in a world where scientific inquiry and invention have shrunk the world to the size of a kumquat and given us the ability to investigate what were once thought to be miraculous events.

http://disq.us/p/2ehrowk
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DanielPeterson Mod > gemli • an hour ago

gemli: ""Almost certainly" is a claim that ought to be based on solid, demonstrable evidence."

As my claim is.

You're too ignorant about this topic for a worthwhile conversation on it to occur between us.

????

Conversations like this clearly place Peterson's witnesses story alongside stories like those of witnesses of flying saucers. That's the impact this movie will have, unfortunately.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

So. I guess if someone just says something, and someone else says something similar it’s “almost certainly” solid historical evidence? Well, shoot. What if someone else writes it down? It’s “almost certainly” iron clad as far as evidence goes!

- Doc

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Since Mr. Peterson reads this board, daily in fact, I’d like to extend this challenge to him:

He can buy this 5-gallon water tote for $10.

https://www.target.com/p/ust-5-gallon-w ... lsrc=aw.ds

Fill it full, so there’s no air bubbles in it. It’ll weigh 41.7 lbs. Ask one of his young family members who’s in good shape to pick it up and run two miles with it. Just go down to a track, and have him or her do eight laps. There’s a handle there on top for simulating one of the loops the plates most like were bound with.

If the young man or woman can finish the two miles with, say, two five minute rests, I’ll eat the tote.

- Doc

[Doctor Scratch]

Lol! DCP read our posts and has now decided that he’d prefer to argue with EV critics.

Well, of course! it's EVs who gave him the idea of taking this line of argument to the extreme. If it weren't for Josh McDowell's "Evidence that demands a verdict" and more specifically, the "400 witnesses saw the resurrected Jesus" arguments he would have put the 3 witnesses in the back of his mental filing cabinet like everyone else in the Church does, and concentrated on the statistical impossibility of NHM.

You have to give him some credit here. If a person is guaranteed Jesus is the risen lord because the Bible says 400 people saw him in the sky, if eye witness testimony is that powerful, then should not the plates also be real given the witnesses?

That's a tough call. I mean, *400* is a whole lot more than a mere three. And if the basic logic here is dependent on numbers, then both of these arguments fail spectacularly in the face of a staggering eye-witness count such as that associated with UFO and extraterrestrial sightings.

But, these are the Mopologists, and I'm sure they want it both ways. So, yes: 3 is a bigger number than zero. But if 3 is supposed to hold up in the face of 400 (to say nothing of the hundreds of thousands of UFO witnesses), then a witness of *1* should be sufficient for reality and/or faith.

[Doctor Scratch]

Since Mr. Peterson reads this board, daily in fact, I’d like to extend this challenge to him:

He can buy this 5-gallon water tote for $10.

https://www.target.com/p/ust-5-gallon-w ... lsrc=aw.ds

Fill it full, so there’s no air bubbles in it. It’ll weigh 41.7 lbs. Ask one of his young family members who’s in good shape to pick it up and run two miles with it. Just go down to a track, and have him or her do eight laps. There’s a handle there on top for simulating one of the loops the plates most like were bound with.

If the young man or woman can finish the two miles with, say, two five minute rests, I’ll eat the tote.

- Doc

I think you make a fair suggestion, Dr. Cam. I'm sure they'd split hairs with you, though: the dimensions of tote are a lot bulkier compared to the plates, thus making it harder to carry. Plus, there would be water sloshing around, and that can affect a person's balance and biomechanics. Perhaps we could suggest a simple 8"x8"x16" cinderblock, which weights in the neighborhood of 35 pounds, and is perhaps a bit more similar to the plates in terms of shape and size? Hey, if they want to film a person hauling around a cinderblock like that, I would be willing to publicly concede that they were right about Joseph Smith possibly carrying the plates in that manner. It could be sort of like "Mopologist Mythbusters."

[Doctor Scratch]

ROFL!!!

I hope that gemli is not now denying that there was a Joseph Smith. And I also trust that even gemli must realize that Latter-day Saints see God as the object of their faith and not Joseph Smith.

C'mon, Dr. Midgley: just *ask* him to say it so that you can have your fun and give your canned response.