Is Mormonism so bad?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: Is Mormonism so bad?

Post by dastardly stem »

honorentheos wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:56 pm
Paul speaks specifically of meeting with James the brother of Jesus. It's crazy talk to say Paul made up the historical Jesus.
I think they would say, rather, Paul probably believed there was a Jesus but the story of him was born before Paul ever heard of him. Carrier uses the story of aliens in NM. In 30 years in our modern time, a whole UFO was created, that is the story became something miraculous, believed and accepted. Its not a stretch to say in 30 years time a whole character was invented in that era--when no one could read and fantastic spiritual stories were accepted without investigation.
The Jesus mythology that replaced the law with grace is another story. But it's nearly impossible to accept Paul was a real person and Jesus was not.
I don't think so, but I'd have to get back into the details to reconsider though.
I seem to recall the mythiscist argument is Paul meant brother to mean something else but it descends into irrational apologetics pretty quickly. We discussed this extensively in a thread on the old board. It would take some digging to find but it covered the arguments made pretty well as I recall.
I think the James the brother of Jesus thing is the main thing that argues against mythicists, as mythicists see it. Meaning there is not much else. And since calling him brother need not entail biological brother, believers were said to be adopted into a family where they are all brothers, they maintain it's not very clear what is meant and can't really be that convincing.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: Is Mormonism so bad?

Post by dastardly stem »

huckelberry wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:17 pm

Stem,

The actual letters of Paul are lengthy thoughts about the meaning of the life and death of Jesus which would be odd if there was no Jesus.
Odd doesn't mean much though. I mean its true characters that were said to be historic likely are not, looking back from our perspective. It hardly means anyone who refers to such characters were aware that the character really didn't exist or live. I don't think it's as odd as is assumed. There were many gods just made up and treated as real and having really lived in the ancient world. A mythicist evaluation simply takes it one step further.
Paul reports in a most reliable way comparing his understanding with those in Jerusalem who were with Jesus.

Not sure what you mean here.
That is pretty strong evidence of Jesus. The fact that some early Christians, followers of Paul wrote some letters under his name only shows that Paul and his understanding was not alone. Even calling those letters forgeries does absolutely nothing to undermine the actual letters of Paul.
Agreed.
Paul reports Jesus as a Jew (real person) who was crucified, died, and reportedly raised from the dead. I do not understand why the fact that in writing a letter to a community of believers with reflections on the meaning of Jesus life and death Paul does not include a life of Jesus should be thought either surprising or evidence that Jesus was pretend.
Its odd, I think, would be the general observation. If Jesus was a teaching guru, one would think his teachings were included in the story of him, and if so, anyone who was touting his cult would likely include his teaching. But, that alone doesn't say much about whether Jesus lived. Just an odd bit of information.
I think the strongest observations skeptical of the Christian stories are these. Miracle stories often grew up about some people in those days. People seemed to enjoy such so the Jesus stories could have grown a bit over time. Then there is the observation that people do not come back from the dead so something else must have happen. Both of these observations are very old and have not lost their original strength.
Yes. And that the miracles associated with Jesus have older origin in other myths, long forgotten to us but primary in their time is also a very interesting consideration.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
honorentheos
God
Posts: 4373
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:15 am

Re: Is Mormonism so bad?

Post by honorentheos »

Stem, the argument for James the brother of Jesus via Paul is one of those points that is substantial given the nature of history. Paul was writing contemporary to the lives of the apostles who had lived with Jesus and discusses meeting with them over a period of at least 13 years in which he comes into conflict with them. James the leader of these apostles in Jerusalem is portrayed as very Jewish in his views, and Peter is described by Paul as being subordinate to him.

The argument that Paul meant this James was a brother in the gospel is akin to Book of Mormon apologists arguing for Mesoamerican contexts in the Book of Mormon. Sure, you can make that claim. But you are pushing uphill.

I'd suggest reading other people on the topic besides Carrier and seeing how he holds up once you understand the consensus view that Carrier is disputing rather than just reading mythiscist apologetics.
honorentheos
God
Posts: 4373
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:15 am

Re: Is Mormonism so bad?

Post by honorentheos »

https://www.amazon.com/dp/014025773X/re ... W9AY803XZH

This could be the most specific book on the topic of James but it's controversial. Eisenman argues for Paul being antagonistic to the apostles and deliberately romanizing their very Jewish beliefs. And he argued that the Catholic church scrubbed references to Jesus' family from scripture because it caused problems for the image of Mary remaining a virgin her whole life.

But what it does, which I think rises above the controversy, is really dig into the manuscript evidence. It's a bit of a slog and I think it needed a lot of editing help. But it's jam packed with good argumentation that really tackles the period immediately after the death of Jesus in a way I haven't seen in any other book.
honorentheos
God
Posts: 4373
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:15 am

Re: Is Mormonism so bad?

Post by honorentheos »

I'd argue Carrier attacks naivity in understanding the nature of the Bible. He uses facts like the pseudepigraphic epistles and myth-making to argue for something that is essentially a form of biblical fundamentalism only in reverse. The idea being that because history is distant and difficult to access, and the stories we have are not 100% true one then assumes a radical form of skepticism about everything involved. Being skeptical of the accuracy of our knowledge is one thing, but it is a perversion of skepticism into fundamentalism when that uncertainty becomes rejection of all knowledge that relies on records from the past. As has been noted, Carrier treats Jesus differently than we treat just about every other person in history. That's how apologists behave. The Book of Mormon gets special treatment compared to other stories that conflict with archeological evidence. Carrier argues against Jesus being a historic figure in ways that would erase our collective past if applied broadly.
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: Is Mormonism so bad?

Post by dastardly stem »

honorentheos wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:16 pm
Stem, the argument for James the brother of Jesus via Paul is one of those points that is substantial given the nature of history. Paul was writing contemporary to the lives of the apostles who had lived with Jesus and discusses meeting with them over a period of at least 13 years in which he comes into conflict with them. James the leader of these apostles in Jerusalem is portrayed as very Jewish in his views, and Peter is described by Paul as being subordinate to him.

The argument that Paul meant this James was a brother in the gospel is akin to Book of Mormon apologists arguing for Mesoamerican contexts in the Book of Mormon. Sure, you can make that claim. But you are pushing uphill.

I'd suggest reading other people on the topic besides Carrier and seeing how he holds up once you understand the consensus view that Carrier is disputing rather than just reading mythiscist apologetics.
I"ve read and considered others. I've seen disagreement beyond just Carrier and "the mainstream". I don't care to get heavily involved because for me it doesn't matter if Paul thought Jesus was James' actual biological brother, or if Jesus lived. Every case, I think, I've seen Carrier comment on it, he seems to indicate he accepts people will disagree with his conclusions. And that's to be expected. But that hardly means the points he raises the scholarship he's offered is of no use. The dismissive nature of this is difficult to understand because we're on a message board relying on memories and not discussing details. So its hard for me to see the dismissals as anything much more than an unwillingness to take the works produced seriously. And I accept I could be wrong.

I found Carrier's blog this morning. He has many articles addressing many of the issues he's raised over the years. Poking around I'm thinking it a good source for easy access to many of his ideas.

Here is some of his respnse to Bart Erhman on the topic of James the brother of Jesus:

https://www.richardcarrier.information/archives/11516

An interesting snippet:
I here cite Trudinger’s peer reviewed article demonstrating that the grammatical construction Paul uses in Gal. 1:19 is comparative. In other words, “Other than the apostles I saw no one, except James the Lord’s brother.” Thus, the construction Paul is using says James is not an Apostle. And both Trudinger and Hans Dieter Betz (who wrote the Fortress Press commentary on Galatians) cite a number of peer reviewed experts who concur (OHJ, p. 590, n. 100). There were of course Jameses who were Apostles. So Paul chose this construction to make clear he didn’t mean one of them (or a biological brother of Cephas, for that matter). He meant a regular “Brother of the Lord,” an ordinary non-apostolic Christian. But a Christian all the same—which was important for Paul to mention, since he had to list every Christian he met on that visit, lest he be accused of concealing his contacts with anyone who knew the gospel at that time.

Ironically, in his attempt to answer Trudinger, George Howard, the only person to answer Trudinger in the peer reviewed literature (OHJ, p. 590, n. 101), observed that the examples Trudinger referenced still involve “a comparison between persons or objects of the same class of things,” such as new friends and old friends belonging to the general class of friends, and indestructible elements and destructible elements belonging to the general class of elements. But that actually means Cephas and James belong to the same class (Brothers of the Lord, since Jesus is “the firstborn of many brethren…”), which entails the distinction is between Apostolic and non-Apostolic Brothers of the Lord, just as Trudinger’s examples show a contrast being made between destructible and indestructible elements and old and new friends. Howard’s objection thus actually confirms the very reading I’m pointing to. It thus does not in fact argue against Trudinger at all—who would agree both Cephas and this James belonged to the same class of things: Christians. Howard’s only other objection was to suggest Paul could have said James was not an Apostle by an even more convoluted sentence; when Occam’s Razor entails the reverse, that Paul would have said such a thing, had he intended to say such a thing, in a much simpler way, not a more complex one—after all, it would be far easier to just say “I met two apostles.” Exactly as Trudinger observes. (I discuss in OHJ several other simpler ways of saying the same thing than Howard suggests.)
It appears I had remembered correctly in that he sees this tiny mention of James the brother of Jesus as the best case for those who argue against mythicists. Although I think he does an adequate job in responding and explaining how it's possible this does not quite attest to what it is wanted to attest to.

It seems like those who maintain historicity are those who are practicing apologetics in the eyes of mythicists. In the end it seems like a silly thing to get too hung up on, because as it is the elements of the story of Jesus' life aren't supported and seem unlikely. So again I would just wonder, out loud, what it would mean to say Jesus actually lived if the life story told about him doesn't really describe the life story of anyone who could be him in antiquity. That's why I suggested earlier that Carrier is one, among many, who poses interesting conclusions but does so on the grounding of good scholarship, as far as my meager brain can see.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: Is Mormonism so bad?

Post by dastardly stem »

honorentheos wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:35 pm
I'd argue Carrier attacks naivity in understanding the nature of the Bible. He uses facts like the pseudepigraphic epistles and myth-making to argue for something that is essentially a form of biblical fundamentalism only in reverse. The idea being that because history is distant and difficult to access, and the stories we have are not 100% true one then assumes a radical form of skepticism about everything involved. Being skeptical of the accuracy of our knowledge is one thing, but it is a perversion of skepticism into fundamentalism when that uncertainty becomes rejection of all knowledge that relies on records from the past. As has been noted, Carrier treats Jesus differently than we treat just about every other person in history. That's how apologists behave. The Book of Mormon gets special treatment compared to other stories that conflict with archeological evidence. Carrier argues against Jesus being a historic figure in ways that would erase our collective past if applied broadly.
I'd say that's severely misunderstanding him. I don't think he's suggesting the type of perversion of skepticism you are describing. He clearly relies heavily on ancient sources and as he sees it, whether anyone agrees or not, is letting the story that results tell itself.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: Is Mormonism so bad?

Post by dastardly stem »

And with that said, along with anything else I decide to come back on, I did not intend to get hung up on Carrier in this thread. I mentioned him, I think, in a response to MG as a resource who argues against the tradition and against mainstream. Its fair to say I caught him in my research at a time that made him easily swallow-able, if you will, for me. But, with that said, I don't think I got too heavily sold on the Jesus is myth. I find it interesting but, again, it doesn't really matter to me if someone named Jesus lived or not. I mean everyone agrees it was a common name and it's not surprising at all if someone among the myriad of jewish sects developed a special following.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
honorentheos
God
Posts: 4373
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:15 am

Re: Is Mormonism so bad?

Post by honorentheos »

There were so many threads on this topic between 2015 and 2019 or so that I think there is a certain negative reaction to it being brought up when it's been juiced, rinded, dried, and ground before.

Here are a couple. I think the second link speaks more to Carrier's misuse of the evidence while the first thread focuses on Carrier's use of that data in presenting and defending his views.

http://mormondiscussions.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48999

A good thread on balancing skepticism. Symmacus offers a good summary:
The problem for me is that the conclusion is so obviously dependent on the premise. The discussion on Carrier seems by now to have a predictable life-cycle on this board, which is fine, but in that life-cycle it usually comes out that Carrier's logically-derived conclusions all depend on the inputs: "garbage in, garbage out." I am open to the possibility that Bayesian analysis is a sound method for determining historical probabilities, but it seems to me that when I look at Carrier's inputs as they are presented here, they are all garbage, and anyone who has any grasp of the scholarship, languages, cultures, and histories of the period can see that. It gets tiring pointing it out over and over, just as I am sure it is tiring for Analytics to argue the soundness and validity of Bayesian analysis. I think both sides are essentially correct, but the problem is with Carrier: how he weighs his evidence before performing any Bayesian analysis is determined by the conclusion he wants to get. He mischaracterizes, minimizes, and maximizes. And the only metric you use when you want to mischaracterize, minimize, or maximize some bit of data is what you want it to prove in the end. THAT is how Carrier is like Peterson. It is not money that is the problem.
Bolding added.

Here's one where we discussed the evidence in some detail:

http://mormondiscussions.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48048

A few posts for those not inclined to follow the link:
Thanks for sharing this. I have to say, I wasn't particularly impressed with Carrier's use of evidence. A few examples from his initial argument are below.

Early on in his first 20 minutes he makes use of Ehrman's argument from How Jesus Became God to show there were cultural devices and types in the occupied Palestine Jewish communities that were applied to Jesus. Ehrman makes the case these were applied to him after his death while Carrier claims there is evidence in the epistles that support viewing this as the source of the Jesus myth in total such that no actual Jesus existed. His references (at around 33:45) include arguing Paul describes Jesus was an angel (described as an archetype in his presentation) as stated by Paul in Galatian 4:14. But what it actually says is, Galatians 4:14 - and even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. That seems like a forced reading of the verse to see it as saying Paul thought of Jesus as an angel rather than as providing an escalating comparison for how they received Paul.

Carrier notes that Paul contrasts Jesus with Adam who was created by God rather than born, failing to acknowledge that the text is making a literary comparison between the two (For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!). Instead, Carrier claims this shows that as Adam was "manufactured" by God, so was Jesus. That also seems to be a forced interpretation of what is actually being said by Paul.

Around minute 38 he behaves as if he is ignorant of the diversity of Christianity's that were in competition in the 2nd and 3rd Centuries CE, which with the rise of teaching such as in Gnosticism are the cause for the sources of this time warning against those who would teach against Jesus being a living person.

He notes that Paul in Galatians tells us that he did receive of a gospel from man, but from Jesus through revelation which is not in dispute, but also assumes the point that when Paul tells people after Jesus' death that the only way they can receive the gospel is by revelation that this somehow applies to those who might have been around when Jesus was alive. James Jesus' brother or Peter who are known to Paul aren't included and it's unclear why Carrier would choose to apply this logic to everyone given the context of the epistles are to evangelized gentiles who would not have been able to know Jesus in the flesh.

He uses the claims of Paul that both Paul and the churches he establishes have received revelations as being evidence against the authenticity of a historical person we know as Jesus of Nazareth. But that seems to be unrelated like the above: it doesn't say anything about the time period or people who would be witnesses of a historical Jesus of Nazareth.

His argument around minute 42 that the description in Romans of baptism making all brothers and sisters to Christ the firstborn, thus explaining the apparent reference to James as Jesus' brother as referring to his baptism is one that Price made. But that breaks with some general rules of textual criticism. Common use of language implies that if Paul makes use of this phrase to refer to something other than kinship, we ought to see it in his writing as evidence of his authorship. Carrier doesn't do much to make this case by showing this is a device of Paul's, which makes sense because it isn't a device of Paul's. It's how he distinguishes James the brother of the Lord from other people.

The follow up point that the idea Jesus was born of David or of a woman (Romans 1:3 - regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David; Galatians 4:4 - But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law) he claims Paul is speaking in allegory in Galatians 4. But fails to provide a relevant verse though he may mean v. 24 where Paul is specifically referring to his comparision to the wives of Abraham and children of a bond v. free woman. If so, that's problematic.

He also refers to Paul's use of "ginomai" as significant to show that Paul did not view Jesus as being born because he does not use "gennoa". But he doesn't take on the responsibility of explaining this well, since it is consistent of Paul's description of God having sent Jesus for a purpose. The problem Carrier sees here isn't clearly a problem, in my opinion. http://biblehub.com/greek/1096.htm

I guess I still don't see what the point of the mythicicst argument really is given that we aren't limited to either "No Jesus" or "Resurrected Jesus the Christ, the Son of God". I see no reason to overlook his rather Mormon mopologetic-like use of scripture and history to no longer view the historical Jesus as a person who lived at one time, served as the catalyst for an explosion of beliefs and stories that have undergone centuries of countless cycles of expansion and synthesis, and whose actual biography would probably be almost completely new to all of us if we were able to have access to it.

So, that leaves me with this question: If the historical view allows for the mythologizing of a historical Jesus from a lost biography into his deified, ahistorical mythology why is there a need to completely remove Jesus from history? Especially in the way Carrier does above playing with facts which really puts me off?

ETA: I come at this with considerations that are somewhat extreme as well, though. I don't completely discount the views of Robert Eisenman who argues that the Roman Catholic church did much to write out Jesus' family from the narratives but that they can be found still; that Paul may have intentionally corrupted Christian teachings with some allegiance to Rome given his citizenship that defanged the teachings of this one branch of many rebellious Jewish sects into something more compatible with Roman rule; and that James was the theological heir to Jesus rather than Peter or Paul making the entire idea of priesthood authority as claimed by Mormonism central to what Mormon's call the apostasy. But he's a sloppy writer and loose in his thinking as well so he should be viewed with a lot of skepticism. I mostly retain some of his views among my own because they are hard to shake as speaking directly against Mormon views of the early and still authentically led Church of Christ before the apostasy.
mentalgymnast
1st Counselor
Posts: 450
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:29 pm

Re: Is Mormonism so bad?

Post by mentalgymnast »

dastardly stem wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:33 pm
mentalgymnast wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:58 pm


So to get this straight, Paul’s work and testimony was the result of multiple delusionary experiences that he had?

Regards,
MG
Why is a dream a delusion? Do all other religious gurus and characters suffer from delusion because they reveal a God and religion different from what you expect? Why is Paul any different?
If I’m not mistaken Paul was fully conscious and aware during his multiple experiences. So he wasn’t dreaming. Are you willing to say that he was delusional? Methinks you would have been one of those that didn’t experience what he did at the time he received the visitation from Christ. One thing we can probably agree on...the road to Damascus changed Paul’s trajectory 180 degrees.

Let it be said, I totally see where your world view cannot allow Paul’s experiences to be anything other than some kind of delusion.

Regards,
MG
Post Reply