The Holy Ghost

[_Gazelam]

Nort. The small line you just shared in refrence to the Holy Ghost doesn't say what you think it does. The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead, and he bears witness of the Gospel. I am also unawre of any teaching that says that the Godhead are not of one mind. I think anything contrary would be against any teachings concerning God.

The earliest teachings of the church concerning The Holy Ghost are actually found in 1 Nehi chp. 11 :1-11 This is the only occasion in all of scripture that the Holy Ghost makes a personal appearance, and he was a man.

Gaz

[_ajax18]

D&C 130:22 ...the Holy Ghost does not have a body of flesh and bones but is a personage of spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell within us."

I havne't been active/believed in Church for some time, but I still remember my scripture mastery cards.

[_Gazelam]

Do you still pray?

[_Quantumwave]

Gaz:

I formed an opinion about three decades ago that certain doctrine I was taught in my youth made no sense, in that the doctrine was completely illogical, and not only that, but utterly unnecessary. A portion of this doctrine is the savior-based atonement for activities by the imaginary "first man" called Adam in the mythological "garden of eden". It makes no sense that it would be necessary for someone else to pay for alleged misbehavior that is described by an allegorical story written by authors who either never intended it to be believed, or were completely out of touch with reality. In addition to that, It makes no sense for someone else to atone for any of my personal misbehavior.

The reason I point this out under the "Holy Ghost" thread is that I really hadn't given much thought to the validity of the whole Holy Ghost concept, up until now, and it seems to me that here, again, there is absolutely no need of such a concept. If I remember correctly you say you have had some kind of verification of the existence of the HG, but how do you know this isn't some spirit guide or angel of some kind from the afterlife, or simply your imagination that expects such a response?

It seems to me that the "Holy Ghost" concept belongs in the same mythological category as the Adam-Eve Garden of Eden, savior/atonement and also, by the way, the resurrection concepts.

[_gramps]

Gaz:

I formed an opinion about three decades ago that certain doctrine I was taught in my youth made no sense, in that the doctrine was completely illogical, and not only that, but utterly unnecessary. A portion of this doctrine is the savior-based atonement for activities by the imaginary "first man" called Adam in the mythological "garden of eden". It makes no sense that it would be necessary for someone else to pay for alleged misbehavior that is described by an allegorical story written by authors who either never intended it to be believed, or were completely out of touch with reality. In addition to that, It makes no sense for someone else to atone for any of my personal misbehavior.

The reason I point this out under the "Holy Ghost" thread is that I really hadn't given much thought to the validity of the whole Holy Ghost concept, up until now, and it seems to me that here, again, there is absolutely no need of such a concept. If I remember correctly you say you have had some kind of verification of the existence of the HG, but how do you know this isn't some spirit guide or angel of some kind from the afterlife, or simply your imagination that expects such a response?

It seems to me that the "Holy Ghost" concept belongs in the same mythological category as the Adam-Eve Garden of Eden, savior/atonement and also, by the way, the resurrection concepts.

Good points!

But, Gaz doesn't seem to comprehend anything that is being said to him concerning these things. Isn't that right, Gaz? Please, I will ask again, how can you know anything about the Holy Ghost? Because the Holy Ghost told you? Because the scriptures told you? Because the "prophets" told you? Rationally explain this to us without falling into that vicious circle game that I have mentioned twice now above and which you haven't yet addressed.

Tell us Gaz, how do you know there is a Holy Ghost? (tapping fingers on my desk awaiting a response...............)

[_ajax18]

It seems to me that the "Holy Ghost" concept belongs in the same mythological category as the Adam-Eve Garden of Eden, savior/atonement and also, by the way, the resurrection concepts.

Are you maintaining a possibility of an afterlife without a resurrection? I don't see much purpose in life if the truth is that sooner or later we are just going to disappear into oblivion. I think that's why people struggle to hold onto religion. Nothing else really seems to offer a satisfactory answer to these questinos, at least not that I've heard. Any ideas?

[_Quantumwave]

Ajax wrote:

"Are you maintaining a possibility of an afterlife without a resurrection? I don't see much purpose in life if the truth is that sooner or later we are just going to disappear into oblivion. I think that's why people struggle to hold onto religion. Nothing else really seems to offer a satisfactory answer to these questinos, at least not that I've heard. Any ideas?"

I have formed some personal ideas resulting from the past 4 years of fairly intensive study, at least for me. My conclusions are my own, and while I like to regard my own cognitive ability as logical and without the credulous sway of hope, I know everyone is biased by their own world-view, colored by life’s experiences. The reason my conclusions are not hope-driven is due to the logic that if my consciousness was extinguished along with my body, I would not, could not care in the least.

I believe that what is referred to as the afterlife is a reality. Also the term “afterlife” implies it to be a subset of this life whereas the physical existence we now enjoy is but a pale reflection of actual reality we will move into.

I have found a ton of information that has been independently verified by thousands upon thousands of individuals, many of whom are eminent scientists of impeccable integrity.

The reason for the concept of “resurrection” is due to the fact that people cannot imagine life beyond our material existence. The Mormon mentality of this is the flesh-and-blood deity residing near a star somewhere in the physical universe called Kolob.

I have written a few papers describing what I have found but I won’t post them here out of respect for Dr. Shades' resources. However, I can give you a link to an excellent source of information, which will also provide additional links.

http://www.victorzammit.com/

Victor Zammit is a retired international lawyer, and has spent his retirement years accumulating information validating the afterlife and writing a book, "A Lawyer Presents the Case for the Afterlife". The book is free for the downloading. Mr. Zammit is not in it for monetary gain, and in fact uses his own resources to provide others with what he describes as “vital information”.

Regarding “disappearing into oblivion”, the overwhelming evidence from the afterlife says that the reality of what we call "afterlife" is much more solid and vibrant than we experience here on earth. And this is from thousands of independent testimonials.

If I can be of further assistance, please let me know.

[_gramps]

Hi Quantum Wave.

I followed the link you provided, to the lawyer's site about the paranormal.

I also listened to some of the recordings. I especially liked the Louis Armstrong recording of It's A Wonderful Life.

You are pulling our leg, aren't you?

Are you telling me that you believe that that recording is actually Louis Armstrong, re-materializing and singing that famous tune?

Come on, tell me, you are joking, right?

I listened to a lot of those recordings and was flabbergasted that people could really believe such a thing.

And another thing: that lawyer's book is bunk, to be honest. I was very unimpressed. You can't believe in the Holy Ghost, but you can believe in that spiritualist seance stuff? Are you for real?

I would suggest others reading here go and visit that site and see what you think. It's specifically great after a couple of beers.

sorry, quantum wave, but I ain't buying what you are selling. I feel like I need a shower to clean myself off.

[_Quantumwave]

Hi Quantum Wave.

I followed the link you provided, to the lawyer's site about the paranormal.

I also listened to some of the recordings. I especially liked the Louis Armstrong recording of It's A Wonderful Life.

You are pulling our leg, aren't you?

Are you telling me that you believe that that recording is actually Louis Armstrong, re-materializing and singing that famous tune?

Come on, tell me, you are joking, right?

I listened to a lot of those recordings and was flabbergasted that people could really believe such a thing.

And another thing: that lawyer's book is bunk, to be honest. I was very unimpressed. You can't believe in the Holy Ghost, but you can believe in that spiritualist seance stuff? Are you for real?

I would suggest others reading here go and visit that site and see what you think. It's specifically great after a couple of beers.

sorry, quantum wave, but I ain't buying what you are selling. I feel like I need a shower to clean myself off.

Hi Gramps,

I'm not surprised at your reaction. Mine was the same when I initially saw the information. I would suggest you make more of an examination before dismissing it all off-hand. There is a lot more to it than you have been able to see in your short examination.

With the millions, perhaps billions of people experiencing such events as past life memories, near death experiences, death bed visions, out of body experiences, just to name a few, it takes a very closed mind to dismiss it all with such a short examination. However, I certainly understand your postion. I have been there.

[_marg]

There is a lot more to it than you have been able to see in your short examination.

You have said "I believe that what is referred to as the afterlife is a reality." What top 3 pieces of evidence have you come across which you think would support your claim.

With the millions, perhaps billions of people experiencing such events as past life memories, near death experiences, death bed visions, out of body experiences, just to name a few, it takes a very closed mind to dismiss it all with such a short examination.

Those experiences which you list are reported by individuals living. Many people have such experiences which you mention but often times there is a reasonable naturalistic explanation such as drug induced, or illness. Having such experiences doesn't support the claim that the "afterlife is a reality". You imply with your statement that there are "millions, perhaps billions" having these experiences and that are concluding based on those experiences that the "afterlife is a reality." Even if there are million, perhaps billions of people who at some point in their lives experience hallucinations..and even if we assume for argument sake they think that is evidence of an afterlife...it doesn't follow that it is evidence for a "real" afterlife.

by the way...I'm not very interesting in spending much time in this discussion. I have looked at the site you offered and was not impressed by V. Zammit argument presentation. As I read I could see flaw after flaw in his logic..which is fine for persuasion especially in courts when one's only interest is winning over a jury ..but it is not what is needed to get to a truth or reality..which is what you are after or should be. It is not worth the time to point it out the deficiencie in his logic here. I will leave it to you ..to present what you believe is the best evidence to support an "afterlife reality."