Angel to Money Digging

[_moksha]

One question that I have wondered about for sometime, but restrained myself from ever asking at FAIR is this: If Joseph had been visited by an Angel from an early age and was slated to receive ancient records and be the Prophet of the new dispensation, why did he ever get involved in money digging efforts, (which I assume was the early 19th Century equivalent to being a scam artist)?

I am somewhat hesitant to ask that question now, because it is so provocative, but I would really like to hear a reasonable answer.

[_Mister Scratch]

One question that I have wondered about for sometime, but restrained myself from ever asking at FAIR is this: If Joseph had been visited by an Angel from an early age and was slated to receive ancient records and be the Prophet of the new dispensation, why did he ever get involved in money digging efforts, (which I assume was the early 19th Century equivalent to being a scam artist)?

I am somewhat hesitant to ask that question now, because it is so provocative, but I would really like to hear a reasonable answer.

I would imagine that the apologetic answer would be that it doesn't matter. God chose Joseph to restore the Gospel, and so all the other things you're asking about are beside the point. But as for the *real* answer, I'm not sure. I haven't read Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magical World View, but I would imagine that it touches on precisely some of these issues. In the first volume of The Mormon Hierarchy, Quinn suggests that the mixed-up dates and revisions on the First Vision and Joseph Smith's various encounters with angels have to do with him feeling paranoid, and thinking that no one would believe him. If that was indeed his mindset, then I don't really think it is all that much of a stretch for him to embark on something like occult-influenced moneydigging. (I.e., he feels inspired, and yet also worries he won't be believed, and so he uses his Divine Visitation as a kind of springboard for his career in necromany and moneydigging.)

[_Quantumwave]

One question that I have wondered about for sometime, but restrained myself from ever asking at FAIR is this: If Joseph had been visited by an Angel from an early age and was slated to receive ancient records and be the Prophet of the new dispensation, why did he ever get involved in money digging efforts, (which I assume was the early 19th Century equivalent to being a scam artist)?

I am somewhat hesitant to ask that question now, because it is so provocative, but I would really like to hear a reasonable answer.

I would imagine that the apologetic answer would be that it doesn't matter. God chose Joseph to restore the Gospel, and so all the other things you're asking about are beside the point. But as for the *real* answer, I'm not sure. I haven't read Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magical World View, but I would imagine that it touches on precisely some of these issues. In the first volume of The Mormon Hierarchy, Quinn suggests that the mixed-up dates and revisions on the First Vision and Joseph Smith's various encounters with angels have to do with him feeling paranoid, and thinking that no one would believe him. If that was indeed his mindset, then I don't really think it is all that much of a stretch for him to embark on something like occult-influenced moneydigging. (I.e., he feels inspired, and yet also worries he won't be believed, and so he uses his Divine Visitation as a kind of springboard for his career in necromany and moneydigging.)

I have Quinn's "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View" in my library and from what I read, Joseph Jr was following Joseph Sr's lead. The whole family was apparently involved in the occult during Joseph Jr's formative years, so the money digging was a natural outgrowth, and could have been believed to be a legitimate enterprise by Jr.

[_The Dude]

One question that I have wondered about for sometime, but restrained myself from ever asking at FAIR is this: If Joseph had been visited by an Angel from an early age and was slated to receive ancient records and be the Prophet of the new dispensation, why did he ever get involved in money digging efforts, (which I assume was the early 19th Century equivalent to being a scam artist)?

I am somewhat hesitant to ask that question now, because it is so provocative, but I would really like to hear a reasonable answer.

The provocative answer is that Joseph Smith's involvement in money digging was a way for God to prepare him to be a seer and a leader. Richard Bushman makes this point in Rough Stone Rolling. Joseph later used the same seer stone to dictate the Book of Mormon, and the kind of people who were led on money digging adventures also became early members of the Church. Most importantly, Joseph Smith Sr.

Did Joseph Smith's seer stone really function in money digging efforts? If it did, then it wasn't a scam. If Joseph Smith believed it did, then it wasn't a scam. If it didn't work and Joseph knew it, then it was a scam, and it only prepared him to be a scam artist.

It's hard to come up with a consistent answer to what Joseph must have thought versus what he later did. A real puzzler. Did he believe in his powers? Did he know they weren't real, but believed that God had chosen him to fool people into believing in Christ? You almost have to call him schizophrenic.

[_Nortinski]

I have Quinn's "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View" in my library and from what I read, Joseph Jr was following Joseph Sr's lead. The whole family was apparently involved in the occult during Joseph Jr's formative years, so the money digging was a natural outgrowth, and could have been believed to be a legitimate enterprise by Jr.

He could "believe" all he wanted but it WAS a crime at the time and he WAS arrested for it.

Nort

[_Jason Bourne]

One question that I have wondered about for sometime, but restrained myself from ever asking at FAIR is this: If Joseph had been visited by an Angel from an early age and was slated to receive ancient records and be the Prophet of the new dispensation, why did he ever get involved in money digging efforts, (which I assume was the early 19th Century equivalent to being a scam artist)?

I am somewhat hesitant to ask that question now, because it is so provocative, but I would really like to hear a reasonable answer.

Does a call to prophethood make certian perfect behavior?

Jason

[_Jason Bourne]

One question that I have wondered about for sometime, but restrained myself from ever asking at FAIR is this: If Joseph had been visited by an Angel from an early age and was slated to receive ancient records and be the Prophet of the new dispensation, why did he ever get involved in money digging efforts, (which I assume was the early 19th Century equivalent to being a scam artist)?

I am somewhat hesitant to ask that question now, because it is so provocative, but I would really like to hear a reasonable answer.

I would imagine that the apologetic answer would be that it doesn't matter. God chose Joseph to restore the Gospel, and so all the other things you're asking about are beside the point. But as for the *real* answer, I'm not sure. I haven't read Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magical World View, but I would imagine that it touches on precisely some of these issues. In the first volume of The Mormon Hierarchy, Quinn suggests that the mixed-up dates and revisions on the First Vision and Joseph Smith's various encounters with angels have to do with him feeling paranoid, and thinking that no one would believe him. If that was indeed his mindset, then I don't really think it is all that much of a stretch for him to embark on something like occult-influenced moneydigging. (I.e., he feels inspired, and yet also worries he won't be believed, and so he uses his Divine Visitation as a kind of springboard for his career in necromany and moneydigging.)

I have Quinn's "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View" in my library and from what I read, Joseph Jr was following Joseph Sr's lead. The whole family was apparently involved in the occult during Joseph Jr's formative years, so the money digging was a natural outgrowth, and could have been believed to be a legitimate enterprise by Jr.

This is an important point. Joseph Smith Jr was very worried about is father and wanted his father to be respected. He seemed to do the money digging often at his father's bidding and eventually told his father that the activity was not in accordance with his calling.

Jason

[_Jason Bourne]

I have Quinn's "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View" in my library and from what I read, Joseph Jr was following Joseph Sr's lead. The whole family was apparently involved in the occult during Joseph Jr's formative years, so the money digging was a natural outgrowth, and could have been believed to be a legitimate enterprise by Jr.

He could "believe" all he wanted but it WAS a crime at the time and he WAS arrested for it.

Nort

So what? And the it also seems that the arrest for this reason was motivated by other factors such as Joseph's religous claims.

Jason[/list]

[_Henry Jacobs]

One question that I have wondered about for sometime, but restrained myself from ever asking at FAIR is this: If Joseph had been visited by an Angel from an early age and was slated to receive ancient records and be the Prophet of the new dispensation, why did he ever get involved in money digging efforts, (which I assume was the early 19th Century equivalent to being a scam artist)?

I am somewhat hesitant to ask that question now, because it is so provocative, but I would really like to hear a reasonable answer.

Does a call to prophethood make certian perfect behavior?

Jason

Does certain behavior bring into question one's proclaimed call to prophethood?

There have been prophets since humans first conceived of a higher power. Problem is their deity only tells them about the calling and no one else. So everyone is left to either believe or reject their claim to a calling, based on the person's behavior and track record of honesty. One who makes such an extraordinary claim, had better have extraordinary integrity and honesty to back it up, no?

Prophethood doesn't require any certain behavior, except for one. Complete and utter, 100% honesty in all matters. Why would god accept any less? Why would he call someone with a weakness for misleading people, or telling "righteous lies". How does it serve God's purposes, if a miniscule number of people will ever believe his prophet's words unless they've been indoctrinated from birth to do so?

Why would he call someone with no more or less integrity than all the other pretenders the world has seen?

[_MormonMendacity]

Does a call to prophethood make certian perfect behavior?

Does certain behavior bring into question one's proclaimed call to prophethood?
<snip>
Prophethood doesn't require any certain behavior, except for one. Complete and utter, 100% honesty in all matters. Why would god accept any less?<snip>

Of course, logicians and apologists might disagree that it would necessarily be a god-requirement, but your excellent response encourages me to raise another interesting question to apologists: Why must god engage in all the faith-games?

We see all the problems with early Mormonism and are often told that it is a requirement from god so that we will have faith. It would be hard for me to ignore an aging car with an odometer reading of 100 miles simply because the salesman asked me to trust him.

Why should I disengage my reasoning to accept the glaring inconsistencies in the stories of early Mormonism so that it can satisfy a God who needs, wants, lusts after, begs for a bunch of gooey, transient life forms to have "faith" in the plan?

It's hard for me to respect this God and especially the people who claim to represent him.