Are we enemies?

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_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

harmony wrote:
wenglund wrote:I think Plutarch is correct in suggesting that many here wish to evade personal responsibility and accountability--to the point of not even honestly acknowledging they are periodic adversaries, or opponents, or foes of the CoJCoLDS (connotations and synonyms for the word "enemy").

In fact, I think much of the opposition to the Church is due to a lack of open and honest introspection and an averson to taking personal responsibility for difficulties and challeges experienced in the Church.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Of course you agree with Plutarch, Wade. You and he are cut from the same cloth. Willful blindness isn't a virtue, but Plutarch and you have both tried to raise it to that level.

I am never in an adversarial, opposite, or foe position to the church. I love the church, and wish only good things to happen to it. I am often impatient, resigned, or dumbfounded at the utter nonsense that comes from our leaders, though. Sometimes, I'm ashamed of them, and others I'm downright disturbed at them. But I acknowledge that the leaders are not the church, and I am able to separaute the two... I can love the church without conditions. I do not afford the leaders the same regard.

So I can say with all honesty: I am no enemy of the LDS church. I love the church. I feel no such regard for church leaders though, and I fear they are leading our more trusting members down the garden path, and those who exercise the same willful blindness you and Plutarch exhibit are missing the main point of the gospel.


Wow. You love the Church? I find love for the LDS Church hard to find in most your posts. You frankly despise almost everything about its founding prophet, seem to despise almost everything about its leaders, and yes the LDS Church does teach that its leaders are apostles and prophets, God's spokesmen on earth. I see very little in your posting to indicate you love the Church.

So what in or about the LDS Church do you love?

Jason
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Wow. You love the Church? I find love for the LDS Church hard to find in most your posts. You frankly despise almost everything about its founding prophet, seem to despise almost everything about its leaders, and yes the LDS Church does teach that its leaders are apostles and prophets, God's spokesmen on earth. I see very little in your posting to indicate you love the Church.


And you feel you know me well enough to make this judgment, based on ... what? Two weeks of reading my words? Perhaps you need to ask a few more questions before you make a leap that will likely prove to be in error.

So what in or about the LDS Church do you love?

Jason


The list is endless. The other list, the one of what is it about the church that really pisses me off, is much shorter.
_Guest
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Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:06 pm

On Knowing...

Post by _Guest »

harmony wrote:
Wow. You love the Church? I find love for the LDS Church hard to find in most your posts. You frankly despise almost everything about its founding prophet, seem to despise almost everything about its leaders, and yes the LDS Church does teach that its leaders are apostles and prophets, God's spokesmen on earth. I see very little in your posting to indicate you love the Church.


And you feel you know me well enough to make this judgment, based on ... what? Two weeks of reading my words? Perhaps you need to ask a few more questions before you make a leap that will likely prove to be in error.

So what in or about the LDS Church do you love?

Jason


The list is endless. The other list, the one of what is it about the church that really pisses me off, is much shorter.


I feel like I know you, at least some of your online personas. I wouldn't have had the same reaction as JB above. But now I'm clear. You love the Church but hate the prophets that lead it. I feel the same way - it's such a consistent position to hold, don't you think?

Best,
Mark

Edit: Changed the word "wouldn't" to what I meant, which is "would've. Makes a difference in what I'm saying.
Last edited by Anonymous on Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_harmony
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Re: On Knowing...

Post by _harmony »

Guest wrote:
harmony wrote:
Wow. You love the Church? I find love for the LDS Church hard to find in most your posts. You frankly despise almost everything about its founding prophet, seem to despise almost everything about its leaders, and yes the LDS Church does teach that its leaders are apostles and prophets, God's spokesmen on earth. I see very little in your posting to indicate you love the Church.


And you feel you know me well enough to make this judgment, based on ... what? Two weeks of reading my words? Perhaps you need to ask a few more questions before you make a leap that will likely prove to be in error.

So what in or about the LDS Church do you love?

Jason


The list is endless. The other list, the one of what is it about the church that really pisses me off, is much shorter.


I feel like I know you, at least some of your online personas. I wouldn't have had the same reaction as JB above. But now I'm clear. You love the Church but hate the prophets that lead it. I feel the same way - it's such a consistent position to hold, don't you think?

Best,
Mark


Well, I wouldn't say hate. Hate is much too strong a word. I don't care for many of the leaders' public personas, and I really don't like many of their policies, and that goes all the way back to Joseph.
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

harmony wrote:
wenglund wrote:
harmony wrote:
wenglund wrote:I think Plutarch is correct in suggesting that many here wish to evade personal responsibility and accountability--to the point of not even honestly acknowledging they are periodic adversaries, or opponents, or foes of the CoJCoLDS (connotations and synonyms for the word "enemy").

In fact, I think much of the opposition to the Church is due to a lack of open and honest introspection and an averson to taking personal responsibility for difficulties and challeges experienced in the Church.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Of course you agree with Plutarch, Wade. You and he are cut from the same cloth. Willful blindness isn't a virtue, but Plutarch and you have both tried to raise it to that level.

I am never in an adversarial, opposite, or foe position to the church. I love the church, and wish only good things to happen to it. I am often impatient, resigned, or dumbfounded at the utter nonsense that comes from our leaders, though. Sometimes, I'm ashamed of them, and others I'm downright disturbed at them. But I acknowledge that the leaders are not the church, and I am able to separate the two... I can love the church without conditions. I do not afford the leaders the same regard.

So I can say with all honesty: I am no enemy of the LDS church. I love the church. I feel no such regard for church leaders though, and I fear they are leading our more trusting members down the garden path, and those who exercise the same willful blindness you and Plutarch exhibit are missing the main point of the gospel.


I think I understand what you are saying. I am aware of women who incessantly berrate and nag their husbands, gossip and backbite, whine and complain about them, blame their husbands for their woes, rarely if ever have a kind, supportive, or encouraging word to say about them, and then when pressed, will say "sure I love my husband" and "I am not an enemy of my husband", and honestly mean it.

But, as mentioned previously, that is because these "wives" lack the capacity for honest introspection and have a near inpregnable aversion to accepting personal responsibility. Were they to have been subjected to the same kind of treatment by their husbands, they would be the first to cry "abuse" and to accuse their husbands of being an adversary, oppositon, foe, and an enemy. But, for the life of them, they cannot see it in themselves.

I see you, harmony/serenity/WAZing, as being that kind of "wife" to the Church.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


With your experience as a husband (zero, from what I can ascertain), I can quite honestly say you don't know anything about marriage, Wade. Come back when you've managed to spend 35 years with the same person. Then and only then will you be able to give me advice about marriage. I've accomplished something you can only dream about. Your credibility when speaking about marriage, or any relationship requiring years of work to maintain, is clearly zero.

Find another analogy. That one doesn't work.


Using that same banal reasoning, I can say that you have no experience as a man, and I can honestly say you know nothing about men. Come back when you have spent 50+ years as a man. Then and only then will you be able to give me advise as a man. Blah blah blah.

Were you to have considered my analogy rationally, instead of emotionally, you may have correctly noted that, contrary to what you suggest, I was in no way giving advise on marriage, but simply making an observation about what I have personally witnessed in several marriages, and accurately related that to what I have personally witness with you in relation to the Church. I do have plenty of experince as a personal witness, and thus, contrary to what you insipidly suggest, I am in an authoritative position to posit the analogy.

Now, I know you are terribly resistent to personal accountability, and thus cannot allow yourself to consider yourself in that unflattering way--even though it is the truth, but would prefer to see yourself in a more favorable light. The good news is, you can eventually become what you now only imagine yourself to be. You can stop being the kind of woman you feel ashamed enough of to deny exists, and become the very best that is you.

However, it will take undergoing the unpleasant task of accepting personal responsibility for what you have been, and what you currently are towards the Church (or also in you marriage if that applies), and then charting a proper course to your intended destination. As Dr. Phil says, you cannot fix what you do not acknowledge.

Please take that first step. We all will benefit from it--but you most of all.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Wade---

Don't you think that you ought to attend to your issues of accountability and responsibility first? That is, don't you think you should:

---Answer the question I posed to you as to whether or not you use a sockpuppet?
---Agree to be interviewed by Tal Bachman?
---Start using a spellchecker?

Honestly, Wade, I really don't understand how/why you think you can go around making accusations vis-a-vis "personal accountability" when you don't live up to those standards yourself.
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

Mister Scratch wrote:Wade---

Don't you think that you ought to attend to your issues of accountability and responsibility first? That is, don't you think you should:

---Answer the question I posed to you as to whether or not you use a sockpuppet?
---Agree to be interviewed by Tal Bachman?
---Start using a spellchecker?

Honestly, Wade, I really don't understand how/why you think you can go around making accusations vis-a-vis "personal accountability" when you don't live up to those standards yourself.


You raise an interesting point in spite of your examples being way off the mark. I shouldn't ask others to do that which I am not willing to do myself. In fact, if I really take my own advise, I would, unlike Scratch, focus first on my own accountability issues before advising others to do likewise.

Now, I happen to believe that I have done so, and do so, but I am certainly open to valid suggestions where I have not.

Anyway, there may be some confusion about what I have in mind in terms of accountability and personal responsibility. And, since this is a bit off topic here, I will start my own thread thereon.

Thanks, -Wade Engund-
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

This is an impossibly subjective question. I do not consider myself an "enemy" to the church, but I have no doubt that traditional believers would view me as an enemy to the church, because I am vocal in my criticisms of certain basic LDS truth claims.

If I were truly an enemy to the church, I would constantly try to get my family members "out", regardless of whether or not they find church activity fulfilling in their own lives. If I were truly an enemy to the church, I would actively seek to communicate information that can lead members to doubt to any and all members of the church, regardless of whether or not they have sought that information on their own.

So, in my mind, I am not an enemy of the church, because I do not do those things. I am, however, a former member who retains an active interest in LDS topics, and who is very willing to discuss those issues with members who seek out those same sort of conversations. If that makes me an enemy of the church in the minds of those people, it simply demonstrates their own prejudices, and perhaps odd need to feel persecuted, even if one has to actively seek persecution.

This is why I quit FAIR. Critics are allowed, and even wanted, in order to present opportuntities for apologists to help believers find a way to reconcile troubling issues. And yet those same critics, who are wanted and needed on the board, are automatically viewed as "enemies" by core FAIRites, (not all posters at FAIR), who do their best to propagate and popularize viewing these same critics as disgruntled, angry, not-to-be-trusted "enemies" of the church. Talk about poisoning the well. It's like posting on a board dedicated to demonstrating that democrats are immoral liars by inviting democrats to discuss "issues" with republicans, while the core republicans on the board propagate and popularize their view that these same democrats are immoral liars. (or vice versa) I guess those sort of conversations fill people's needs in some way, but it doesn't appeal to me. Perhaps both groups are finding their own way of affirming their own prejudices. (republicans: see, all democrats are immoral liars, ignore them and don't vote for them! democrats: see, all republicans think we are nothing more than immoral liars, ignore them and don't vote for them!)*

* I should add that it is not impossible to have some genuine conversations, based on a real desire to talk about the actual issue rather than the flaws of the critic/believer, on boards such as FAIR or my imaginary political board, but it requires immense patience and persistence, as well as the willingness to ignore a significant number of posts and posters. Perhaps if I were retired I would have that kind of patience and persistence, but I ran out a while ago.
_Pahoran
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Post by _Pahoran »

harmony wrote:Mormons view the world as Us against Them. And, as our leaders regularly remind us, if you aren't with Us, you're with Them. Mormons are especially hard on those who have rejected church membership. In the old days, we had Blood Atonement, actual killing of apostates.

Really? Who, for instance?

That falsehood is frequently propagated by enemies of the Church (and hence of the truth) but it is without foundation.

Indeed, I have yet to even see any serious attempt to substantiate it.

harmony wrote:Then we just did it symbolically in the temple.

No. We did not.

That falsehood is frequently propagated by enemies of the Church (and hence of the truth) but it is without foundation.

harmony wrote:Now we just shun and ridicule them.

"Shun" how? Mura hachibu style perhaps?

And do you deny that "ridicule" is at least as prevalent coming in the other direction?

Hey pot, meet Ms. Harmony kettle.

And just who is this "we" anyway?

Regards,
Pahoran
_Jason Bourne
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Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by _Jason Bourne »

harmony wrote:
Wow. You love the Church? I find love for the LDS Church hard to find in most your posts. You frankly despise almost everything about its founding prophet, seem to despise almost everything about its leaders, and yes the LDS Church does teach that its leaders are apostles and prophets, God's spokesmen on earth. I see very little in your posting to indicate you love the Church.


And you feel you know me well enough to make this judgment, based on ... what? Two weeks of reading my words? Perhaps you need to ask a few more questions before you make a leap that will likely prove to be in error.



Sorry. I have seen you post elsewhere for quite some time now. Much longer then a few weeks. I see little you love for the Church in your posting. So If I am in error here is your chance to correct me.

So what in or about the LDS Church do you love?

Jason


The list is endless. The other list, the one of what is it about the church that really pisses me off, is much shorter.


Then you should have little trouble answering my question. What in or about the LDS Church do you love?

Jason
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