Personal accountability/responsibility

[_Mister Scratch]

I think, what you may be referring to, Wade, is criticism, rather than self-criticism.

I am the first to admit, that I am resistant to criticism from others, particularly if I really feel I have done my best on something....but...I am very critical of myself. I think that the reason I am resistant to criticism of others at times, is because I am so critical of myself, and my work before it is even presented to someone else. Does that make sense?

I think that most people, if honest, will admit that they don't like criticism....who does? What we learn to do, as adults, is to take criticism that is given to us and learn from it. That's the challenge.

Actually, I am referring to both, but I am focusing more on self-criticism for a reason.

Baloney, Wade. You're actually referring to "self-criticism" that has been initiated by you. You want all of us to "self-criticize" ourselves on the basis of what you have said. So it's not really "self-criticism" after all. It is Wade Englund criticism.

And, I am not just talking about self-criticism per se, but open and honest and fair self-criticism. We as human's tend to vasilate between the polar extreems of being too harsh on ourselves and being too easy on ourselves. Neither is open and honest and fair self-criticism.

Here again, Wade, you are the one who claims authority to define the parameters of "honest and fair self-criticism." And why? On what basis do have the authority to do this?

We as humans also have a tendency to see clearly the faults in others, but are somewhat blind to the same fault in ourselves (the mote and beam as the Savior mentioned).

And so that applies to you how? Are you going to take accountability for yourself? Are you going to lead by example?

Inherent within each of us are various self-protective mechanism intended for our survival. Resistence to self-criticism and criticism are, in some ways, one of those self-protective mechanism. However, not always are these self-protective mechanism correctly applied (in terms of intensity and otherwise). And, when incorrectly applied, these protective mechanism can end up doing personal harm and damage. I am exploring this possibility with each of us here.

Each of us except yourself, you mean?

But, I am getting a wee bit ahead of myself here. For now, do you have any thoughts on what it might look like were an individual or group or organization to be resistent to self-criticism, lack open and honest introspection, and/or fail to accept personal/group responsibility for difficulties they may experience with others? I am trying to create a generic litmus test that we each can openly and honestly apply to ourselves to see if we suffer from these conditions.

Yes, I can tell you what it looks like. It is a person who habitually mispells words and claims to be capable of "holding up a mirror" that demonstrates others' flaws. It is a person who goes on and on about personal accountability, and yet never takes any. It is a guy in a hat riding in a kayak who runs a Center for the study of Sexual Attraction Disorders, and who uses mangled "lock and key" logic to explain his points.

[_truth dancer]

My second question is: "what behaviors, attitudes, or characteristics lead you to think this about the individuals or groups you suggested? "

Wars, pride, greed, racism, selfishness, elitism, abuse, heirarchy, egotism, class distinctions, discrimination, nepotism, etc. etc....

~dancer~

[_wenglund]

Hi Wade, Is that you in the kayak? A water-guy too? I sail. Probably for the same reasons...

Yes, that is me. I sold my sailboats and bought a kayak to ease transporting my water craft, provide a form of exercise, not be dependant upon the wind, and allow me to get into shallow waters and be less conspicuous when approaching and observing wildlife. But, I do miss harnessing the wind through setting of sail and rudder, and sleeping in the berth at anchor or when tied to the dock, the joy of calculating tide and currents and weather, and the ability to travel further distances more safely on open and rough waters. And, even though I didn't do much racing, what little I did do was a thrill.

You say:

The names aren't important. If you would like to respond to my second question (i.e. "what behaviors, attitudes, or characteristics lead you to think this about the individuals or groups you suggested?"), that would be great.

[/b]
The old saw, "...best defense is an offence..." seems to apply to many individuals, and group representatives. Like a porcupine, the slightest thought of threat and up go the quills. Possibly provoked by a sense of insecurity???

Many/most/some individuals and groups have absolutely no desire or intention to reconsider earlier statements or policies. I can only imagine their reasons for doing so. I cannot imagine there being a usful purpose in such an attitude.

I don't mean to imply such is always expressed in hostility. It might well be stated kindly. However, the message is the same: i/we are/am right. You provide nothing worthy of considerstion... End of discussion...next topic?

Such a state of being is, to me, the epitome of arrogance and the base of ignorance. What do You think? What have You expeienced? Where?

Warm regards, Roger

That was very interesting and insightful, but I prefer to wait in telling some of my experiences until after collecting a non-partison, generic list of characteristics and attributes of those who are resistent to self-criticism, and who lack open and honest introspection, and/or fail to accept personal/group responsibility for difficulties they may experience with others?

here are a few of my own (that I am adding to some of the excellent things you and msnobody have mentioned):

1. Difficulty recognizing, let alone admitting, when they are wrong.
2. Evasive when pressed on personal matters--some times to the point of isolating themselves away from the pressure or preventing access by, or banning away, those doing the pressing.
3. Victim mentality
4. Conspiratorial minded
5. Negatively oriented towards others, while positively oriented towards self
6. Delusions of grandeur
7. Tend to talk and not listen, or not communicate at all.
8. Quick to point fingers at others, and seldom if ever point fingers at oneself or one's group/organization.
9. Prone to gossip, backbiting, ridicule and blame-games.
10. Closed minded--i.e. unable to recognize or acknowledge reasonable divergent perspectives and unwilling to thoughtfully consider feedback.
11. Repeat the same dysfunctional life/social strategies and mistakes over and over again while expecting different results.
12. Quick to anger and accuse or are hyper-sensative and over-reactionary and belligerent
13. Myopic to mote/beam issues in themselves.

Any others you all can think of?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Yoda]

1. Difficulty recognizing, let alone admitting, when they are wrong.
2. Evasive when pressed on personal matters--some times to the point of isolating themselves away from the pressure or preventing access by, or banning away, those doing the pressing.
3. Victim mentality
4. Conspiratorial minded
5. Negatively oriented towards others, while positively oriented towards self
6. Delusions of grandeur
7. Tend to talk and not listen, or not communicate at all.
8. Quick to point fingers at others, and seldom if ever point fingers at oneself or one's group/organization.
9. Prone to gossip, backbiting, ridicule and blame-games.
10. Closed minded--i.e. unable to recognize or acknowledge reasonable divergent perspectives and unwilling to thoughtfully consider feedback.
11. Repeat the same dysfunctional life/social strategies and mistakes over and over again while expecting different results.
12. Quick to anger and accuse or are hyper-sensative and over-reactionary and belligerent
13. Myopic to mote/beam issues in themselves.

Hmmm...sounds like your list adequately describes FAIR! LOL

Sorry, Wade...couldn't resist! ;)

[_wenglund]

I think, what you may be referring to, Wade, is criticism, rather than self-criticism.

I am the first to admit, that I am resistant to criticism from others, particularly if I really feel I have done my best on something....but...I am very critical of myself. I think that the reason I am resistant to criticism of others at times, is because I am so critical of myself, and my work before it is even presented to someone else. Does that make sense?

I think that most people, if honest, will admit that they don't like criticism....who does? What we learn to do, as adults, is to take criticism that is given to us and learn from it. That's the challenge.

Actually, I am referring to both, but I am focusing more on self-criticism for a reason.

Baloney, Wade. You're actually referring to "self-criticism" that has been initiated by you. You want all of us to "self-criticize" ourselves on the basis of what you have said. So it's not really "self-criticism" after all. It is Wade Englund criticism.

And, I am not just talking about self-criticism per se, but open and honest and fair self-criticism. We as human's tend to vasilate between the polar extreems of being too harsh on ourselves and being too easy on ourselves. Neither is open and honest and fair self-criticism.

Here again, Wade, you are the one who claims authority to define the parameters of "honest and fair self-criticism." And why? On what basis do have the authority to do this?

We as humans also have a tendency to see clearly the faults in others, but are somewhat blind to the same fault in ourselves (the mote and beam as the Savior mentioned).

And so that applies to you how? Are you going to take accountability for yourself? Are you going to lead by example?

Inherent within each of us are various self-protective mechanism intended for our survival. Resistence to self-criticism and criticism are, in some ways, one of those self-protective mechanism. However, not always are these self-protective mechanism correctly applied (in terms of intensity and otherwise). And, when incorrectly applied, these protective mechanism can end up doing personal harm and damage. I am exploring this possibility with each of us here.

Each of us except yourself, you mean?

But, I am getting a wee bit ahead of myself here. For now, do you have any thoughts on what it might look like were an individual or group or organization to be resistent to self-criticism, lack open and honest introspection, and/or fail to accept personal/group responsibility for difficulties they may experience with others? I am trying to create a generic litmus test that we each can openly and honestly apply to ourselves to see if we suffer from these conditions.

Yes, I can tell you what it looks like. It is a person who habitually mispells words and claims to be capable of "holding up a mirror" that demonstrates others' flaws. It is a person who goes on and on about personal accountability, and yet never takes any. It is a guy in a hat riding in a kayak who runs a Center for the study of Sexual Attraction Disorders, and who uses mangled "lock and key" logic to explain his points.

Hi Scratch,

While I value your feedback, and I promise to give it due consideration (believing, as I have already admitted, that there may be some merit to what you say), I prefer that you wait to get into your blame-game until after the participants on this thread have compiled a non-partison, generic list of characteristics and attribute, and after discussing advantages of not being resistent to self-criticism, lacking open and honest introspection, and/or failing to accept personal/group responsibility for difficulties they may experience with others.

Afterwards, if you wish to evade what I have actually said, or be closed minded to my reasonable point of view, and quickly point fingers and accuse in a repeatedly reactionary, belligerent, mote/beam way (similar to what you just did), then that might prove very useful as an unwitting object lesson or illustration of what has just been discussed. Fair enough?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

1. Difficulty recognizing, let alone admitting, when they are wrong.
2. Evasive when pressed on personal matters--some times to the point of isolating themselves away from the pressure or preventing access by, or banning away, those doing the pressing.
3. Victim mentality
4. Conspiratorial minded
5. Negatively oriented towards others, while positively oriented towards self
6. Delusions of grandeur
7. Tend to talk and not listen, or not communicate at all.
8. Quick to point fingers at others, and seldom if ever point fingers at oneself or one's group/organization.
9. Prone to gossip, backbiting, ridicule and blame-games.
10. Closed minded--i.e. unable to recognize or acknowledge reasonable divergent perspectives and unwilling to thoughtfully consider feedback.
11. Repeat the same dysfunctional life/social strategies and mistakes over and over again while expecting different results.
12. Quick to anger and accuse or are hyper-sensative and over-reactionary and belligerent
13. Myopic to mote/beam issues in themselves.

Hmmm...sounds like your list adequately describes FAIR! LOL

Sorry, Wade...couldn't resist! ;)

No problem. I encourage people to speak their mind. However, the fact that you thought to mention FAIR and not MTT and MD, may prove illustrative as the discussion proceeds. But for now, I appreciate your input. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Yoda]

No problem. I encourage people to speak their mind. However, the fact that you thought to mention FAIR and not MTT and MD, may prove illustrative as the discussion proceeds. But for now, I appreciate your input. ;-)

I was pretty sure that was where you were going with this, and so was Scratch! LOL

Like it or not, Wade, the reason you were banned on MTT was because you stated that your purpose on MTT was to "mirror" the behavior of those who criticized FAIR, and to mirror Kevin's behavior, in particular.

Since your stated purpose by your own admission was in conflict with MTT's purpose(which is to openly discuss difficult doctrinal issues), and, after discussing this with you in multiple posts, you seemed to be dead set against changing your ways, we thought it best for the tambre of the board to ban you.

Now, to be honest, had you started a thread like this, where you invited open discussion, I would have, frankly, been inclined to let you stay.

[_wenglund]

No problem. I encourage people to speak their mind. However, the fact that you thought to mention FAIR and not MTT and MD, may prove illustrative as the discussion proceeds. But for now, I appreciate your input. ;-)

I was pretty sure that was where you were going with this, and so was Scratch! LOL

Like it or not, Wade, the reason you were banned on MTT was because you stated that your purpose on MTT was to "mirror" the behavior of those who criticized FAIR, and to mirror Kevin's behavior, in particular.

Since your stated purpose by your own admission was in conflict with MTT's purpose(which is to openly discuss difficult doctrinal issues), and, after discussing this with you in multiple posts, you seemed to be dead set against changing your ways, we thought it best for the tambre of the board to ban you.

Now, to be honest, had you started a thread like this, where you invited open discussion, I would have, frankly, been inclined to let you stay.

Well, you and Scratch may or may not have guessed correctly what my intents are. That will play itself out as things go along.

But, I am not sure why you are justifying that specific action (i.e. banning me) when I have yet to challenge your reasons for doing so (this is the second time you have felt a need to explain here, when it really wasn't necessary). In fact, I have stated that I figured that you had your reasons, and I was fine with that, and have been, and am willing, to leave it at that.

With that having been said, is there anyone else who has some attributes and characteristics to add to the list?

What about:

14. A propensity to rationalize, justify, and protesteth too much--particularly where there is little or no cause for doing so?
15. Presuming to know better what an individual or group thinks, means, feels, and believes than the individual or group themselves?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Yoda]

Well, you and Scratch may or may not have guessed correctly what my intents are. That will play itself out as things go along.

Instead of playing word/mind games, why don't you at least have the balls to come out and tell us what your intents are?

With that having been said, is there anyone else who has some attributes and characteristics to add to the list?

What about:

14. A propensity to rationalize, justify, and protesteth too much--particularly where there is little or no cause for doing so?
15. Presuming to know better what an individual or group thinks, means, feels, and believes than the individual or group themselves?

Oh, wait....never mind...you just did.

Touche, Wade! ;)

[_wenglund]

Well, you and Scratch may or may not have guessed correctly what my intents are. That will play itself out as things go along.

Instead of playing word/mind games, why don't you at least have the balls to come out and tell us what your intents are?

With that having been said, is there anyone else who has some attributes and characteristics to add to the list?

What about:

14. A propensity to rationalize, justify, and protesteth too much--particularly where there is little or no cause for doing so?
15. Presuming to know better what an individual or group thinks, means, feels, and believes than the individual or group themselves?

Oh, wait....never mind...you just did. Touche, Wade! ;)

That reminde me of two more:

16. They may turn even the most benign and non-threatening discussion into an issue of personal courage and manliness.
17. They may ask people questions regarding intents, motives, beliefs, etc., and rather than waiting to learn the answer. they will answer the question themselves, and suppose (often incorrectly) they answered correctly, and consider the matter closed.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-