Personal accountability/responsibility

[_Mister Scratch]

I don't know, Wade. I think that you've gone ahead and laid out your theoretical groundwork pretty admirably. But my experience with you is that you don't ever really seem to have in interest in specifics, hence your dismissal of my application of your very own theory to the ironically named FAIRboards. I, for one, would be really interested in seeing you apply the theoretical model you've sketched out on something or someone specific.

[_wenglund]

I don't know, Wade. I think that you've gone ahead and laid out your theoretical groundwork pretty admirably. But my experience with you is that you don't ever really seem to have in interest in specifics, hence your dismissal of my application of your very own theory to the ironically named FAIRboards. I, for one, would be really interested in seeing you apply the theoretical model you've sketched out on something or someone specific.

All in good time. Now that a list of characteristics/attributes has been compiled, I would like to explicate the advantages of changing, and then deliniate the means for change. Once that foundation is laid, then I think it would be time to sketch out something and/or someone specific.

In fact, since you seem a bit impatient, perhaps you can jump ahead by using the GENERIC list and post a specific sketch-out of YOURSELF. Then, we can all give you feedback on how well we think you did.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

I am not getting much response to my last question, and I am not sure if it is because I may have scared some people off in irrational fear of entrapment, or if the subject matter is not that much of interest, or if people just aren't that aware of the disadvantages of resisting self-criticism and open and honest in their introspections, and failing to accept personal/group responsibility for difficulties they may experience with others.

If it is the later, then let me rephrase the question this way: "I terms of the individauls and groups you all have listed, if you could somehow magically flip a switch and change them to be more inclined to self-criticism and introspection, and if by flipping that switch you could get them to accept personal responsibility for difficulties with others, WOULD YOU DO IT. And, if so, why? Do you think the quality of their lives would be improved...how? Do you think the quality of life of those associated with them would be improved...how?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_truth dancer]

Hi Wade... :-)

I think some folks may benefit from less self-criticism, others may benefit from a bit more honest introspection.

Some folks blame themselves for horrible things that may have happened to them, others blame everything on someone else.

Would I flip the switch? No.

Healing takes its own time. There are reasons we behave, think, believe, and process life as we do.

~dancer~

[_wenglund]

Hi Wade... :-)

I think some folks may benefit from less self-criticism, others may benefit from a bit more honest introspection.

Some folks blame themselves for horrible things that may have happened to them, others blame everything on someone else.

Would I flip the switch? No.

Healing takes its own time. There are reasons we behave, think, believe, and process life as we do.

~dancer~

Let me ask it another way: "Would you want them to heal? would it be to their advantage, and to the advantage of those interacting with them, to heal? If so, in what ways?"

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

Would I be correct to surmize that this topic has become uncomfortable, and thus of disinterest to most here?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Mister Scratch]

Would I be correct to surmize that this topic has become uncomfortable, and thus of disinterest to most here?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Nope, you wouldn't. I'm still waiting for you to get into specifics.

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

So am I So am I

[_wenglund]

Would I be correct to surmize that this topic has become uncomfortable, and thus of disinterest to most here?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Nope, you wouldn't. I'm still waiting for you to get into specifics.

I gave you the chance to get into specifics when I suggested: "since you seem a bit impatient, perhaps you can jump ahead by using the GENERIC list and post a specific sketch-out of YOURSELF. Then, we can all give you feedback on how well we think you did."

However, since you seem reluctant to introspect in that way, or reluctant to post those introspections (for reasons the may be illustrative to explore), let me get into the specifics by openly and honestly introspecting about myself, and by take responsibility for difficulties I have had with others.

For the longest time at ZLMB I would verbally duke it out with antagonists against my faith. As I saw things, they would take a verbal swing at my faith, and I would take a verbal swing back at them. They would hurt me, so I would hurt them back (in the hopes of discouraging their swinging at my faith and me, and hurting us both).

There were many times that people told me that I was going about things the wrong way, and actually undermining my Christ-like ideal, and they encouraged me to take a kinder and gentler approach.

I didn't accept this because I saw where others had taken that kind of approach without success. In fact, it appeared at times to make matters worse--i.e. as I understood it, the kinder/gentler approach was perceived by the antagonists as a show of weakness that was deserving of more contempt and exploitation. I figured that the brutish antagonist only understood and respected brute force in return.

Because, at that time, I lacked honest introspection and was unwilling to acknowledge my own personal responsibility for the verbally violent interactions, this went on for years and resulted in an escalation of the verbal violance and even alienation of me from people on my own side of the issue (which I, because of my lack of honest introspection and unwillingness to take personal responsibility, found self-serving, though still unworkable, excuses to explain away the lack of success in meeting my objective for stopping the hurt perpetrated towards my faith).

However, in reading several books on anger, hate, bigotry, and the cycle of violence, and after openning myself up to honest introspection and taking personal responsibility for my part in the verbal violence, I came to understand that the attacks against me and my faith were because those doing the attacking viewed themselves in the same way I viewed myself and my faith: as victims who felt justified in lashing out and protecting ourselves. I understood that, with rare exception, the verbal swipes were not gratuitous, but intended to stop the pain and hurt. I realized that it was the perception of victimization that was at the very center of the cycle of violence.

I understood that in order to extricate myself from that cycle, I would need to, at the very least, stop viewing myself as a victim.

That is easier said than done. When someone is taking a verbal and hurtful swipe at the part of you that is precious and dear, it is very difficult not to view yourself as being victimized, and naturally move to protect yourself from, and hopefully discourage, such attacks.

But, by viewing the verbal and hurtful swipes as a function of perceived victimization, and taking responsibility for my actions, and understanding that my counter-attacks may also be interpreted as further victimization, and by de-personalizing things and by not REACTING and being HYPERSENSATIVE, but more understanding (I did this by way of changing my self-perception from one of warrior and defender to one of healer), I could extricate myself from the cycle of violence. And, for the most part, it worked (bad habits die hard).

And, I figured that since it worked for me, it may also work for those who perceive they have been or are victimized by me and my faith. If I could get them to be open to honest introspection and take personal responsibility for their part in the difficulties they have had with the Church, and correct the possible cognitive distortion driving what I see as false perceptions of victimization, and understand how they can extricate themselves from the cycle of violence, that would stop or deminish the cycle of violence, itself, since there would be no one left perpetrating the violence and/or no one left perceiving themselves as victims.

Now, had I not openned myself up to honest and healthy introspection, and had I not been willing to accept personal responsibility for my part in the difficulties I was having with others, I would still be dysfunctionally feeling victimized, and still deeply involved in the escalating cycle of violence. I would have continued to be hurt and to hurt. I would have alienated myself more from my perceived enemies, and also further offended and alientated myself from my friends and those on my side.

As it is, there are a number of burned bridges that are in need of extensive repair, and some fires that I need to stop lighting and put out. But, at the very least I don't allow myself to be hurt so much by the verbal swipes, and my quality of life has been greatly improved as a result thereof.

What thoughts do you have about this specific example, and how do you think it may relate to yourselves?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

I have noticed that not a few people have read this thread since my last post over 16 or so hours ago, but have yet to comment on the specific example I gave to illustrate the issue of this thread. Why is that?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-