Calmoriah and "the small beginnings of apostasy"

[_Jason Bourne]

Whether one agrees with Cal or Juliann, or Claudia, at least they are opening the door to discussion. It will take the women within the church to help and support the young women. It will take their courage and voice to make a difference and to fulfill the needs of the next generation.

I'm disheartened when I hear men thwart the efforts and stifle the voice of women who are trying to help; judging them as unrighteous because they see a need and want to help.
~dancer~

Well put, TD, and I think you touch upon a crucial point, which is the fact that discussion and language itself are stifled in this regard. GBH's admonitions against praying to Heavenly Mother are another facet of this attempt to control language.

I must say though that GBH has done more for the women in the LDS Church then many LDS leaders. I was impressed at the Soloemn Assembly when he had the women stand and sustian seperatly then he did the same for the YW. That had never ever happened. He established a regular annual World Wide YW conference similar to the semi annual priesthood session. He has changed the way the ward budget works putting extra money to the youth and gives money equally to YW and YM. Like Sheri Dew or not he called a single woman as a member of the Relief Society presidency for the church and hired her as the CEO of Deseret Book. Perhaps not enough but I do think he has done more then most. Course he back peddled a bit with his comment in the last Gen conf priesthood session when he asked the YM how they would feel if they married a girl with more education then they had.

Jason

[_ajax18]

Well put, TD, and I think you touch upon a crucial point, which is the fact that discussion and language itself are stifled in this regard. GBH's admonitions against praying to Heavenly Mother are another facet of this attempt to control language.[/quote]

They don't even pray to Jesus in the Mormon Church. They pray to Heavanly Father exclusively.[/quote]

[_ajax18]

I have no problem seeing women get the priesthood either, especially if I ultimately decide the Church wasn't true to start with. But I don't believe it will work, at least not in numbers, when it happens. I could be wrong but I doubt there would be many members left once a woman becomes prophet and women start to exert considerable influence upon Church policy.

If a woman becomes president of the U.S. we'll have no choice but to plan rebellion and hope for better times. If a woman becomes prophet and starts making life even harder on a Mormon man, (if it could be any more distasteful than it already is) it will truly become a one gender Church, especially since it's headed that way already.

Yeah I hear your point truth dancer about men that are unable to see the woman's perspective. Some can. Some can't But let me tell something that is never going to happen, a woman seeing the man's perspective. It will never happen, and that's why a female run Church is destined for dissension, revolt, and failure.




"Will Sister Summersisle be blessing us with her presence? Oh yes, she's preparing for the coming of the Wicker man!"

[_truth dancer]

Hi ...

I could be wrong but I doubt there would be many members left once a woman becomes prophet and women start to exert considerable influence upon Church policy.

Why? What do you think would happen? You think it is ok to have women degraded and second class members but if there is equality all of a sudden men will leave? I'm not sure I understand you.

If a woman

becomes president of the U.S. we'll have no choice but to plan rebellion and hope for better times.

Hmm... again, what do you think will happen? Why do you think women are so bad?

If a woman becomes prophet and starts making life even harder on a Mormon man, (if it could be any more distasteful than it already is) it will truly become a one gender Church, especially since it's headed that way already.

Why do you think women will make it harder on Mormon Men? I am quite sure I would make it much better if given the chance! LOL!!!

Yeah I hear your point truth dancer about men that are unable to see the woman's perspective. Some can. Some can't But let me tell something that is never going to happen, a woman seeing the man's perspective. It will never happen, and that's why a female run Church is destined for dissension, revolt, and failure.

Why do you say this? Why do you think women cannot understand men? I disagree with you. Many women have sons and understand them quite well.

But again, you seem to think it is ok for men to run things with no care or concern for women but are not ok with men and women together running the church. Wow!

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you? I'm hoping so! :-)

What do you think would happen if there was equality in the church?

~dancer~

[_harmony]

I have no problem seeing women get the priesthood either, especially if I ultimately decide the Church wasn't true to start with.

Women had it in the beginning. Joseph F Smith took it away from us.

But I don't believe it will work, at least not in numbers, when it happens. I could be wrong but I doubt there would be many members left once a woman becomes prophet and women start to exert considerable influence upon Church policy.

If a woman becomes president of the U.S. we'll have no choice but to plan rebellion and hope for better times. If a woman becomes prophet and starts making life even harder on a Mormon man, (if it could be any more distasteful than it already is) it will truly become a one gender Church, especially since it's headed that way already.

Why?

Yeah I hear your point truth dancer about men that are unable to see the woman's perspective. Some can. Some can't But let me tell something that is never going to happen, a woman seeing the man's perspective. It will never happen, and that's why a female run Church is destined for dissension, revolt, and failure.

Please explain this more fully.

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

REally

Wow I find that a little surprisig coming from you Jason

But if you say so I support your decisions

[_ajax18]

But again, you seem to think it is ok for men to run things with no care or concern for women but are not ok with men and women together running the church. Wow!

Oh no, I don't mind if the women run things in the Church at all. My prediction is that it won't work. I could be wrong. I'm not going to elaborate any more. That's just my prediction. Maybe we'll get to see what happens.

Yes Jason they had it in the beginning, but the men still were at the top of the Church. I think what they're pushing for with equal power is a potentially female prophet and even female coucil of the 12. I really don't see equal power coming in any other form. That's what I don't think will work. Women offiicating in ordinances would change very little from my perspective. If I remember right, that's what you were talking about in the early church.

No not all women are bad Truth Dancer, but if you look at groups in history who have been excluded from power, the puritains, women in divorce court, the Catholic Church in Rome. It's as if they start out as prey, but when they become predator, they're just as ferocious and oppressive as the one they replaced. The abuse just has a different direction and different victim.

Let's see the new lessons they would come up with.

1. Why the Lord requires men to date and marry fat women.
2. No sports on Sunday would become as important a rule as the law of chastity.
3. Limited sports during the week or some other Title IX law. Note that while I like the idea of more females getting into sports, the net effect of title IX seems to have been to take sports away from men, especially white men since we're not competitive in money makers like basketball and football. Unfortunately I haven't seen the girls taking as much advantage of it as I would like. The truth is that most of them just like other things. The sooner we accept that, the better off we'll be. Title IX ended WVU mens tennis, and rifle shooting, and I'm still really upset about that.
4. You have to date a girl officially for 2 years before you can marry her. As I've said before, with no premarital sex this isn't going to happen very often. Of course populating the earth isn't everything nowadays. In spite of our problems we are overpopulated.
5. It's ok for women to lie in male female relationships but not men. I don't know if they could state it this clearly but they'd make some sort of law that basically had that effect.
6. Women can't marry in the Church until they are 28 or have at least an undergraduate degree. Yet the men are still required to date them and face Church discipline if they don't.
7. It's ok for women to end dating relationships, but men will be subject harsh gossip and criticism for doing so.
8. All sins committed against your neighbor due to PMS are forgiven and require no apology nor admission of wrongdoing or lack of self control.

And that's just for starters.

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

Why in the World should Women Care about holding the Stupid Priesthood......

Why in the world would I want to control anyone like Priesthooders do?????

Of course Mormon women will say they have no interest.....THEY MUST........SHUT UP and SING....

We want shared power.....which many times in many Mormon families there is no such thing as shared power

And you Jason know that and do not and I mean do not give that me crap that women are powerful because they can bring babies into the world......That Is a Bunch of CRAP and you know it....

It takes two or three or more to bring children in the WORLD and love and protect them from the POWER that will ultimately destroy them

I would be quite happy to see women hold the LDS priesthood and would rejoice in it as much as I did when the blacks were able to have LDS priesthood.

Jason

Jason AS A MAN!!!!!

What do you intend to do about that ?????

I am curious ??????


I am waiting to hear your solution????

[_truth dancer]

Hi Ajax,

OK, now go with me for a sec here. :-) Lets talk about men being in charge....

1. Why the Lord requires men to date and marry fat women.

Why the Lord requires woman have to agree to allow their husbands to sleep with other women.

2. No sports on Sunday would become as important a rule as the law of chastity.

No working outside the home, following their dreams, or finding fulfillment outside the home.

3. Limited sports during the week or some other Title IX law.

Limited involvement in involvment outside the home.

4. You have to date a girl officially for 2 years before you can marry her. As I've said before, with no premarital sex this isn't going to happen very often. Of course populating the earth isn't everything nowadays. In spite of our problems we are overpopulated.

I don't quite get this one... typically women are pretty anxious to get married.

5. It's ok for women to lie in male female relationships but not men. I don't know if they could state it this clearly but they'd make some sort of law that basically had that effect.

Hmmm I don't know any woman who feels it is ok to lie in a relationship. If anything I think women would encourage men and women to be honest and strengthen relationships. Men don't have a great history in the church regarding honesty. :-(

6. Women can't marry in the Church until they are 28 or have at least an undergraduate degree. Yet the men are still required to date them and face Church discipline if they don't.

Why in the world would women want this? Hmmm.....

7. It's ok for women to end dating relationships, but men will be subject harsh gossip and criticism for doing so.

Hmmm don't know any women who would suggest such a thing.

8. All sins committed against your neighbor due to PMS are forgiven and require no apology nor admission of wrongdoing or lack of self control.

Nope...I think there may be an emphasis on apologizing and forgiving; not the "denial, justify, rationalize" we commonly see.

Seriously, I think you have the wrong idea about women. :-) Are you married? What gives you such a slanted, unhealthy view of women?

If women were in charge there would be a lot fewer meetings (so families could actually be together once in a while), much shorter Sunday meetings (you KNOW men created the long schedule where children can barely survive), no garments (men and women benefit for sure), some family supportive communication with missionaries, white shirts would be optional (whatever is clean would be fine), NO girls or women would be interviewed alone with men, single people would be welcome and significant, women could help out with financial concerns, share their gifts with the world, men could be home with their children more.... how is THAT for starters? :-)

If you are one of those guys who is waiting for the harem in the CK, well that would go the way of Adam/God... LOL!

~dancer~

[_ajax18]

I'm not interested in a harem. That's for sure. I'm interested in relief.

I don't quite get this one... typically women are pretty anxious to get married.

Then perhaps you're looking at from a worldly perspective. At BYU it was the men who were after marriage due to some major sexual repression. Perhaps you're old enough to understand the effect sex or lack of it has on a man, but then again I since you're not a man I wonder if you can understand any better than I understand PMS.

Women avoid marriage in Mormondom because they they enjoy getting attention from lots of guys. They usually won't marry until they're ready to have a child. Now if you're talking about the world where people have sex before marriage than men definitely are the ones who avoid marriage. I blame part of that on men who don't want responsibility, but also more and more on some very unfair divorce court decisions.

While I don't have a problem with women having power in the Church if they really are more like Elaine Jack than say a Susan Estrich, I don't see what it is you think you're missing. If it's done right, it really is just a service, and nothing more. Women already do that now. I wouldn't mind women doing it if they wanted, but what is that they really think they're missing? I've been a priesthood holder for some time now and it really hasn't made me any happier. It's just something I do out of duty and because I know I should. I don't feel honored in any way as an Elder in the Church. I guess I just don't see what the girls think they're missing, but hey if it makes you happy, have at it. Women already do missionary work, which in my opinion is the hardest calling there is by far.

Truthfully I really don't envy President Hinckley's job either. Is that what you want?

If anything I hope we can agree on some fair gender rules and develop some kind of culture in this country since we've rejected the old culture. What we lack at this point is consistency and fairness. I think it would help the psyche of everyone involved if we weren't always at war over what is fair.

I think it helped my mom learn a lot having two sons. She's seen a side of life, especially in dating that she would never have understood otherwise. I hope I have a daughter. I'd like to see life through her eyes as well.