Calmoriah and "the small beginnings of apostasy"

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

Yes I would have loved a daughter as well..... could have taught her to be a bitch/GET THINGS DONE

I would have empowered her to stand up for herself to love herself to look in the mirror everyday and tell herself that she is the most beautiful person in the whole world...I would have told her that her body was hers and no one elses...

I would have told her that she and she alone can make the decisions....that she should not give up her power to anyone at anytime..

That her value is not determined by a man being at her side

SORRY that is what I would have taught her

[_Jason Bourne]

Well put, TD, and I think you touch upon a crucial point, which is the fact that discussion and language itself are stifled in this regard. GBH's admonitions against praying to Heavenly Mother are another facet of this attempt to control language.

They don't even pray to Jesus in the Mormon Church. They pray to Heavanly Father exclusively.[/quote][/quote]

Mormons pray to the Father in the NAME OF Jesus Christ. They worship Jesus Christ as the Son of God, Savior and Redeemer of man kind, just like the Bible teaches.

Jason

[_Jason Bourne]

I have no problem seeing women get the priesthood either, especially if I ultimately decide the Church wasn't true to start with.

Women had it in the beginning. Joseph F Smith took it away from us.

I am not sure this is correct. Can you explain this? It seems that the Relief Society was set up by Joseph Smith with a priesthood model and perhaps would have led to this. But I do not recall women ever having the priesthood in the full sense. I am interested if I am wrong to understand this better.


Jason

[_Jason Bourne]

REally

Wow I find that a little surprisig coming from you Jason

But if you say so I support your decisions

I assume you mean my comment about the priesthood and women being able to hold it. So yes, really.

Jason

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason AS A MAN!!!!!

What do you intend to do about that ?????

I am curious ??????


I am waiting to hear your solution????

I wish I had a solution. I do not. I am just one little peon. And the Church more likely then not would excommunicate someone who openly pushed for such a change. But I can tell you when I have been in a position to do so I strived to give the women leadership every opportunity to lead out and always was interested very much so in input and participation in all decisions.

Jason

[_ajax18]

Yes I would have loved a daughter as well..... could have taught her to be a bitch/GET THINGS DONE

I would have empowered her to stand up for herself to love herself to look in the mirror everyday and tell herself that she is the most beautiful person in the whole world...I would have told her that her body was hers and no one elses...

I would have told her that she and she alone can make the decisions....that she should not give up her power to anyone at anytime..

That her value is not determined by a man being at her side

SORRY that is what I would have taught her

I don't have a problem with any of that, unless it has some underlying meaning attached to it that I don't see.

Of course you make your own decisions. Who says you can't? I still like to think we all have free agency. Yes that means there are consequences.

Of course her body is hers. Modern Mormons have much more respect for the chastity of women than most in my view. But if a relationship is set completely on your terms, what you want when you want it, all about you, then that's not a very healthy relationship in my view. Even if you can pull off such a relationship in life, I don't believe such relationships will exist in eternity. If you can still bring the golden rule in line with every thing you said, you might be surprised to find that I don't have much of a problem with that.

No her value is not determined by having a man at her side. I certainly haven't heard that in the Mormon Church. Marriage is something you strive for, but if the other side isn't willing, you just do your best and if you don't get married in this life, there is the next life. Most Mormons still espouse a fair God. If you can stand before God and tell him or her if you prefer to look at it that way your reasons for not marrying than that is ultimately the only person you have to answer to. The only things that really determine a persons value are the moral decisions that a person makes. As long as your remembering that men are human beings too and factor them into your golden rule, I can't really disagree with anything you said.

Having a good self esteem based on the idea that you are a child of God seems solid to me. I'm not sure about the most beautiful person in the world thing though. I know a lot of people who would say that, but I'm more into honesty. The gospel message of infinite potential is a good one and the fact that it's true should allow us all to rejoice without having to resort to lying to ourselves to make us feel better.

As long as modern feminism really does strive for equality and not just female power and dominance, I have no problem at all with it. Yet it seems to me that as they throw out the old customs that don't work in their favor they try to keep the ones that did work in their favor. That's not fair and that's why I don't trust the feminists.

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

Ajax

You must look deeper inti feminism really means...I am a feminist and will always be feminist...my boys are feminists

My husband is a feminist......everyone is a feminist....welll at least they should be before they fear something they do not understand..

FEMINISM-----WIKIPEDIA

Feminism is a collection of social theories, political movements and moral philosophies, largely motivated by or concerned with the liberation of women. Most feminists are especially concerned with social, political and economic inequality between men and women (in the context of it being to the disadvantage of women); some have argued that gendered and sexed identities, such as "man" and "woman", are socially constructed. Feminists differ over the sources of inequality, how to attain equality, and the extent to which gender and gender-based identities should be questioned and critiqued. In simple terms, feminism is the belief in social, political and economic equality of the sexes, and the movement organised around the belief that gender should not be the pre-determinant factor shaping a person's social identity, or socio-political or economic rights.

Most modern feminist political activists commonly campaign on issues such as reproductive rights (including the right to safe, legal abortion, access to contraception and quality prenatal care), violence within a domestic partnership, maternity leave, equal pay, sexual harassment, street harassment, discrimination and rape. Many feminists today argue that feminism is a grass-roots movement that seeks to cross boundaries based on social class, race, culture and religion. They also argue that an effective feminist movement should be culturally specific and address issues relevant to the women of the society in question such as female genital cutting, or "clitorectomies", in Africa and the Middle East and the "glass ceiling" issue in developed economies. They also debate the extent to which certain issues such as rape, incest and mothering are universal. Themes explored in feminism include patriarchy, stereotyping, sexual objectification and oppression.

[_Randall]

I think y'all have misread Calmoriah. I think she is saying that it would be good if there were rituals for YW and women...currently they just have washing and annointings (and I guess the other temple worker ordinances). Rituals for YM start at age 12 with the offices/ordinations.

I don't thinks she is saying that women should have the priesthood.

[_moksha]

I am wondering why it is necessarily a priesthood function to carry around the Sacrament trays. Would havoc result if the girls did it as well? My guess is that the girls are probably routinely pressed into such duty as helping to serve the food in Mormon homes.

[_harmony]

I have no problem seeing women get the priesthood either, especially if I ultimately decide the Church wasn't true to start with.

Women had it in the beginning. Joseph F Smith took it away from us.

I am not sure this is correct. Can you explain this? It seems that the Relief Society was set up by Joseph Smith with a priesthood model and perhaps would have led to this. But I do not recall women ever having the priesthood in the full sense. I am interested if I am wrong to understand this better.


Jason

When Joseph formed Relief Society originally, it was not a priesthood auxilliary. It was not under the priesthood's umbrella. It was a free-standing organization for the church's women, on the same level as the priesthood was for men. Women could bless and annoint each other and their children, use the priesthood they were given in the temple to bring help and comfort to the homes of the Saints.

Women could bless... do you understand what that would mean today? Women could hold their babies and give them their names and blessings, women could annoint and bless the sick, men would not need to go to Girls' Camp because the women could perform whatever ritual was needed, women could call and set apart other women for their callings, etc.

Joseph had a vision of what women in the church could do. That changed when Joseph F Smith got ahold of it. He put it under the priesthood umbrella, took away women's ability to bless each other and the children, and made it the dependent organization it is today. It is a poor shadow of what it originally was concieved to be.

Read about it in Women and Authority: Re-emerging Mormon Feminism by Maxine Hanks. I believe Quinn documents it too. [/i]