healing/recovery through venting?

[_wenglund]

No Wade.

I think we all realize that the venting and grief makes sense to you. The reason for the venting and grief is what is at issue, in my opinion. ~dancer~

That is correct.

A number of years ago I used to jog around downtown SLC. One day I happened to be jogging along the sidewalk near a convenience store when a man in the parking lot suddenly ran towards me and in an effort to grab me, he yelled: "Stop...what are you trying to do....you want to get people killed?"

Well, I stiff-armed him and kept on running, though I could hear him shouting various epitaphs behind me.

Needless to say, the experience was rather dissettling. In all my years of running, few people had yelled at me (usually teenagers attempting to spook or tease me in passing) and fewer still had tried to grab me.

Naturally, I took personal inventory to see if there was something I might have done to cause his unusual reaction. But, I couldn't think of anything that I had done that would warrant it. Certainly, no one else along my route or in the convenience store parking lot reacted anywhere close to him. So, I reasonably figured that I was not to blame. However, given the man's dissheveled appearance and somewhat crazed demeanor, I figured that he may have been one of the homeless schizophrenics that had been released onto the streets. In other words, I thought at the time that the guy was crazy.

Looking back, and knowing what I do now about cognitive behavioral therapy, I no longer consider the man crazy. In fact, I believe his actions made perfect sense given his presumed cognitions. It is quite possible that his reasoning went something along the lines of: 1) I have a moral obligation to try and stop people who may cause others to die; 2) men who are running may cause others to die (who knows, maybe he was in Vietnam and saw a man running, only to hear a split-second later a huge explosion that killed an number of soldiers in his unit, and so his mind drew a correllation between men running and death); 3) Wade is a man who is running; 4) Therefore, I have a moral obligation to stop Wade so that people wont die.

This reasoning is perfectly logical given the premises. So, as I now understand things, it is not that the man's reasoning was faulty and caused him to behave so unusually, but his premises (i.e. his cognitions). To me now, it is not that the man was crazy or devoid of reasoning, but rather at least one of his premises were incorrect--or in other words, the man suffered from cognitive distortions. And, if those cognitive distortion could be corrected, the man's inherent reasoning ability may no longer lend itself to yelling and trying to grab men like me who are running, and may even prevent him from behaving in that kind of unusual manner.

In PRINCIPLE, I think the same applies to the relatively rare instances where people feel a need to vent and grieve upon loosing their faith in the gospel of love (and NO, I am not suggesting that vocal ex-Mormons at RFM are schizophrenic, though some could be, and others could have certain personality disorders or lack certain social skills, or others still may have picked up some dysfunctional interpersonal habits, etc.). It is not that they don't have reasons to yell and cry out (to men whether running or not) and vent an grieve. They do. It is not that they are crazy. Rather, I believe it is because they have cognitive distortions which, when corrected, will improve the quality of their lifes and the quality of life of those in contact with them, regardless of whether they regain their faith in Christ and his restored gospel or not.

That is why I asked the questions that I did about grief. If healing is the goal, then correcting the cognitive distortions is the means, not venting and grieving. In fact, through correcting the cognitive distortions the need to vent and grieve becomes unnecessary and may even seem unreasonable--and this without the least suppression of emotions (because the emotions will be kept, for the most part, at managable levels in healthy and productive ways).

Now, lest you misunderstand me as usual, I am not talking about the conclusions you may have come to about the verity of the gospel of Christ (though I think those, too, are a function, to some degree, of cognitive distortions). Rather, I am talking about the cognitions that have excited your emotions to the point where you have felt a need to vent and grieve, where numerous other haven't (both those who retain their faith and those who have lost theirs).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Runtu]

No Wade.

I think we all realize that the venting and grief makes sense to you. The reason for the venting and grief is what is at issue, in my opinion. ~dancer~

That is correct.

A number of years ago I used to jog around downtown SLC. One day I happened to be jogging along the sidewalk near a convenience store when a man in the parking lot suddenly ran towards me and in an effort to grab me, he yelled: "Stop...what are you trying to do....you want to get people killed?"

Well, I stiff-armed him and kept on running, though I could hear him shouting various epitaphs behind me.

Needless to say, the experience was rather dissettling. In all my years of running, few people had yelled at me (usually teenagers attempting to spook or tease me in passing) and fewer still had tried to grab me.

Naturally, I took personal inventory to see if there was something I might have done to cause his unusual reaction. But, I couldn't think of anything that I had done that would warrant it. Certainly, no one else along my route or in the convenience store parking lot reacted anywhere close to him. So, I reasonably figured that I was not to blame. However, given the man's dissheveled appearance and somewhat crazed demeanor, I figured that he may have been one of the homeless schizophrenics that had been released onto the streets. In other words, I thought at the time that the guy was crazy.

Looking back, and knowing what I do now about cognitive behavioral therapy, I no longer consider the man crazy. In fact, I believe his actions made perfect sense given his presumed cognitions. It is quite possible that his reasoning went something along the lines of: 1) I have a moral obligation to try and stop people who may cause others to die; 2) men who are running may cause others to die (who knows, maybe he was in Vietnam and saw a man running, only to hear a split-second later a huge explosion that killed an number of soldiers in his unit, and so his mind drew a correllation between men running and death); 3) Wade is a man who is running; 4) Therefore, I have a moral obligation to stop Wade so that people wont die.

This reasoning is perfectly logical given the premises. So, as I now understand things, it is not that the man's reasoning was faulty and caused him to behave so unusually, but his premises (i.e. his cognitions). To me now, it is not that the man was crazy or devoid of reasoning, but rather at least one of his premises were incorrect--or in other words, the man suffered from cognitive distortions. And, if those cognitive distortion could be corrected, the man's inherent reasoning ability may no longer lend itself to yelling and trying to grab men like me who are running, and may even prevent him from behaving in that kind of unusual manner.

In PRINCIPLE, I think the same applies to the relatively rare instances where people feel a need to vent and grieve upon loosing their faith in the gospel of love (and NO, I am not suggesting that vocal ex-Mormons at RFM are schizophrenic, though some could be, and others could have certain personality disorders or lack certain social skills, or others still may have picked up some dysfunctional interpersonal habits, etc.). It is not that they don't have reasons to yell and cry out (to men whether running or not) and vent an grieve. They do. It is not that they are crazy. Rather, I believe it is because they have cognitive distortions which, when corrected, will improve the quality of their lifes and the quality of life of those in contact with them, regardless of whether they regain their faith in Christ and his restored gospel or not.

That is why I asked the questions that I did about grief. If healing is the goal, then correcting the cognitive distortions is the means, not venting and grieving. In fact, through correcting the cognitive distortions the need to vent and grieve becomes unnecessary and may even seem unreasonable--and this without the least suppression of emotions (because the emotions will be kept, for the most part, at managable levels in healthy and productive ways).

Now, lest you misunderstand me as usual, I am not talking about the conclusions you may have come to about the verity of the gospel of Christ (though I think those, too, are a function, to some degree, of cognitive distortions). Rather, I am talking about the cognitions that have excited your emotions to the point where you have felt a need to vent and grieve, where numerous other haven't (both those who retain their faith and those who have lost theirs).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

So, you're just here to help, eh? :-)

[_wenglund]

Oh...and one more thing. Yes, I do think there are legitimate reasons to vent and grieve (i.e. in cases where it is not a function of cognitive distortions). Obviously!

As explained to Shades over a year ago, there are real cases of victimization and mistaken perceptions of victimization. I used the example of a women who was brutally raped and traumatized in her home as an example of real victimization, and I used the example of her elderly sister (who had been traumatized after hearing of her sisters rape), who mistook as an assault a boy scout who had taken hold of her arm to help her step down from the curb and cross the street.

Similar things can happen with venting and grieving.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_truth dancer]

Hi Wade,

Now, lest you misunderstand me as usual,

I applogize if I have frequently misunderstood you.. I truly have done my best to understand your perspective.

I guess I can sum up the last ten pages of this thread by saying, some people think they need to grieve and vent after their loss of faith, some may not. Wade doesn't feel grieving and venting are appropriate for loss of faith, others feel they benefit by venting, and their journey out of Mormonism is a loss healed though grieving.

Is that close? I sincerely am trying! :-)

~dancer~[/quote]

[_marg]

So, you're just here to help, eh? :-)

Yes, he has a cognitive distortion. Just like his assessment of the man who yelled at him running who thought his running would cause harm. Wade feels he has experiences and expertise in evaluating RFM posters and that they are causing themselves more harm than good in their "venting".

So I think if we follow the reasoning, Wade should have listened to the man and stopped running.

The problem that I see Wade is that your view of RFM posters is distorted. They see the Church quite clearly, have assessed it using good reasoning and are critical of it and part of their purpose is to warn others...to not be taken in by the Mormon organization. They don't suffer from suppressed emotions, cognitive dissonance, distorted perceptions.

Anger is a detrimental problem when it is suppressed and it becomes turned inward and/or turns into passive aggressive behavior towards others. This does have negative affects on those who are in relationships in which one or more parties are continually angry but it isn't expressed in appropriate ways.

RFM posters are not in a relationship with the church. They don't have to work anything out with the church, they've left it. If they have anger, by the mere fact they are communicating it means it is not being turned inward on themselves, nor are they being passive aggressive What they are doing Wade is being pro active, a grass roots organization which is critical of the Mormon church and which is exposing it on the Net. Many posters there I suspect feel this is a worthwhile purpose, that is to use the Net to spread information. And the Net does do that.

[_wenglund]

Hi Wade,

Now, lest you misunderstand me as usual,

I applogize if I have frequently misunderstood you.. I truly have done my best to understand your perspective.

That comment was intended for the general readership here, and was not intended to be specific to you. In fact, I didn't have you in mind when I said it. I had people like Runtu, Beastie, Scratch, and Marg, who have rather frequently and consistently misconstrued or mistakenly read things into what I have said.

I guess I can sum up the last ten pages of this thread by saying, some people think they need to grieve and vent after their loss of faith, some may not. Wade doesn't feel grieving and venting are appropriate for loss of faith, others feel they benefit by venting, and their journey out of Mormonism is a loss healed though grieving. Is that close? I sincerely am trying! :-)~dancer~

Yes, in some ways that is close. It is like saying: Wade doesn't think it appropriate to yell at and grab men who are running, and the man at the convenience store parking lot does.

But, the issue really goes beyond that, doesn't it? It is not just a matter of acknowledging that people see things differently. Rather, it is a matter of determining, in everyone's best interest, what is valid and appropriate or not, and what works and what doesn't. From my perspective, the folks at RFM are, through cognitive distortions, unnecessarily creating their own pain and suffering and anger and loss, and the manner in which they are mis-directing their venting and grieving adds to, and unnecessarily prolongs, the cyle of pain and suffering and anger and loss. What I am proposing is a proven method for RFMers and others like them to stop their own pain and suffering and anger and loss, and keep them from causing undue pain and suffering and anger and loss to others. Who wouldn't want that?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Sam Harris]

rather frequently and consistently misconstrued or mistakenly read things into what I have said.

Wade, can you tell us how it is possible to misconstrue comparing people you call anti-mormons with anti-semites?

[_Ray A]

The problem that I see Wade is that your view of RFM posters is distorted. They see the Church quite clearly, have assessed it using good reasoning and are critical of it and part of their purpose is to warn others...to not be taken in by the Mormon organization. They don't suffer from suppressed emotions, cognitive dissonance, distorted perceptions.

Anger is a detrimental problem when it is suppressed and it becomes turned inward and/or turns into passive aggressive behavior towards others. This does have negative affects on those who are in relationships in which one or more parties are continually angry but it isn't expressed in appropriate ways.

RFM posters are not in a relationship with the church. They don't have to work anything out with the church, they've left it.

Not so. Many RFM posters are still Mormons, even if they only post for a short time. There are also Mormons who go on RFM with questions, very much suffering cog. diss., and some stay for a while. Many who have had their names removed still have very much active family and sometimes spouses. You seem to think cog dis is something a person can get rid of by snapping fingers. For some it can occur over many years, though not as bad as in the church. Some are still going to be faced with questions and challenges from TBM family, possibly reigniting the cog diss. in some situations, and occasionally they are going to wonder about some doctrines. Look at Runtu, who left FAIR, vented on RFM, then tried to regain a TBM testimony. As usual, your analysis is very superficial, too black and white.

[_Runtu]

That comment was intended for the general readership here, and was not intended to be specific to you. In fact, I didn't have you in mind when I said it. I had people like Runtu, Beastie, Scratch, and Marg, who have rather frequently and consistently misconstrued or mistakenly read things into what I have said.

Wade,

If I have misread you, it was not intentional.

[_Yoda]

Hi Wade,

I have facilitated a number of groups dealing with various issues, including domestic violence and sexual assault.

My observation is that many survivors of abuse find it beneficial and healing to share their experiences, their pain, their sorrows, their frustration, and their anger.

I find as humans, we each have our own way of dealing with the pain, struggles and sorrows of life. For some, finding support, a listening ear, or a way to release the pain during the difficult times can be extremely helpful.

~dancer~

Am I correct in assuming that this "sharing" is under the guidance of a therapist?

If so, would you recommend this kind of "sharing" in an unstructured environment, outside the facilitation of a therapist--say, like on the Jerry Springer Show, or its online equivolencies?

Is it a therapeutic technique, or a means to gain insight that may be used to heal? In other words, does venting heal the patient, or perhaps simply enable the patient to be healed through various proven interventions?

Does this same technique work for people with dysfunctional and/or male-adaptive social skills, or those with mild to moderate levels of disorders like borderline personalities, narcissists, paranoid delusional, schitzophrenia, etc.?

Would this "sharing" be advised for those suffering from prejudices and bigotry--such as White Supremicists who feel hurt, angry, and victimized by Jews and Blacks?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Ideally, I think that this type of sharing would occur under the guidance of a therapist, but that might not always be possible due to financial difficulties.

I think that sometimes it does help just to write out what's bothering you. Many times, just in doing that, you can help spell things out for yourself, and resolve things.

I've lurked on RfM, and, like Truth Dancer, I've seen some threads that are utter nonesense, but it's fairly easy to avoid those through simply the topic names.

I don't know that I would go so far as to compare RfM to a "Jerry Springer" environment. I suppose that some threads may lend themselves to that type of extremism, but certainly not the majority.

I don't think that venting is the ultimate answer to recovery, but I do think that it can be utilized as a starting point in identifying the problem. And, doing so anonymously on a message board might allow the poster to speak with a little less candor and let his/her guard down a little.

I agree that it is not the solution, but I think that it can certainly be a beginning.