Kudos, Shades!

[consiglieri]

But, if I have struggles with GIMR regarding her struggles

Can I ask, how the hell is that even kosher?

Well, I guess if Eminem can do it, so can Wade.

"You find me offensive
I find you offensive for finding me offensive
Hence if I should draw out a line or any fences
If so to what extents, if any, should I go?"

-Eminem, Rain Man

Edited to add a word that the lyric poster left out

[_wenglund]

But, if I have struggles with GIMR regarding her struggles...

Because you're not GIMR. You should not be struggling with anything to do with GIMR. That's her problem, not yours.

If her "problem" was with herself, and not my faith and the FAIR board (both of which I was a member of), and had she kept her problem private, instead of publishing it publically on a message board, then you may have a point. It wasn't, and she didn't, and therefore you don't.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Who Knows]

If her "problem" was with herself, and not my faith and the FAIR board (both of which I was a member of), and had she kept her problem private, instead of publishing it publically on a message board, then you may have a point. It wasn't, and she didn't, and therefore you don't.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

This is what you initially wrote:

This is what I love about these kinds of biased emotional outpourings above. GIMR can have her struggles with the Church and FAIR, and that is okay, and sympathy and empathy and understanding abound.

I see no mention of you in there - You are not the church, and you are not FAIR.

[_Sam Harris]

The problem wasn't with me, you ass! It was with the church's racist past, racist doctrine, and unrepudiated racist teachings! Which I was told nothing about, even as I told those little boys who knocked on my door that I had a problem with black people being racist against whites, even in churches today.

My family knew more about blacks and the church than I did. The church never told me anything, I had to find out by hearing members talk out their necks, and through the internet.

But I'm sure, Wade, that you would agree with your contemporaries on FAIR that I should just go back to Africa. And don't ask for a reference post, S Gordon removed it, as he well should have.

Go pick up the book "I Have An Answer" by "Dr." David Pressley Bowman, turn to the section on Blacks and the Priesthood, and tell me what you read. How about the Journal of Discourses?

Explain Moses 7:22.

Explain the cursed skins of blackness in Book of Mormon.

Explain to me why the church went to such legnths to defend a "policy" if that was what the ban was, only further perpetuating the stereotypes of those earlier times, especially if this is God's true church, and supposedly more enlightened?

And tell me how the hell I was supposed to raise black children in this church without instilling a hefty dose of cognitive dissonance in them FROM BIRTH?! Actually, how was I supposed to find a spouse? Not including the men from Ghana who hunted me down every time I walked past (see, the white women wouldn't date them any more than the white men would date me), but anyone who was single and therefore game in the church?

Wade, this here woman is beautiful. Inside and out. Your disagreement with my disagreement has no bearing on that. I look in the mirror sometimes and wonder how any uncultured white boy from SLC could have stood this up. But hey, their loss. I have a man, and we're very happy together.

[_wenglund]

I didn't call you a hypocrite Wade, I called you a sanctimonious prick. Two different things.

You, my little pain, have no right to tell me that I can't feel hurt by what I went through in the church. You have no right to tell me that what I went through was due to some mental or emotional deficiency. You have no right to try to step in as my savior.

Likewise you have no right to tell me that I can't defend my faith against your false accusations. You have no right to tell me that your false accusations against my faith aren't a function of cognitive distortions. You have no right to prevent me from standing up for my faith.

This may come as a bit of a surprise to your self-centric mind, but all this isn't just about you. You aren't the only point of view that has rights and that matters. When you come to a board where I am a participant, and start whining and complaining and leveling accusations about alleged racism behind every bush in the Church, and feeling sorry for yourself. Then by virtue of that action you give me the right to respond and to correct you as I see fit.

Now, if you have now found a faith that suites you fine, then I am happy for you, and I wish you all the best. And if you wish to move forward and leave the past behind, then that would be great for all parties concerned.

But, that is not what you are doing when you come here badmouthing FAIR. You are still dwelling in the past. You are still whinning and accusing about things that I have a vested interest in protecting, and when you do that, you will hear from "pointy white-nosed" me. Understood?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

If her "problem" was with herself, and not my faith and the FAIR board (both of which I was a member of), and had she kept her problem private, instead of publishing it publically on a message board, then you may have a point. It wasn't, and she didn't, and therefore you don't.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

This is what you initially wrote:

This is what I love about these kinds of biased emotional outpourings above. GIMR can have her struggles with the Church and FAIR, and that is okay, and sympathy and empathy and understanding abound.

I see no mention of you in there - You are not the church, and you are not FAIR.

You are not GIMR, and you are not the Church or FAIR, and you were not mentioned in that statement either, and most importantly you are not ME. But look who talking? Look who is trying to tell me what my struggles shouyld or shouldn't be? Look who is trying to tell me what business is or isn't mine?

Of course I am not the Church or FAIR. So what? I don't have to be either to have a vested interest, as a commited and faithful member (at least of the Church), in discussions involving those two organization--and much more of an investment in them than you have in GIMR and me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Who Knows]

You are not GIMR, and you are not the Church or FAIR, and you were not mentioned in that statement either, and most importantly you are not ME. But look who talking? Look who is trying to tell me what my struggles shouyld or shouldn't be? Look who is trying to tell me what business is or isn't mine?

Of course I am not the Church or FAIR. So what? I don't have to be either to have a vested interest, as a commited and faithful member (at least of the Church), in discussions involving those two organization--and much more of an investment in them than you have in GIMR and me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Dude, chill out. I'm just trying to help you understand why you aren't getting any sympathy - that was your question right?

[_Sam Harris]

Wade, I'm not going to tell you what I really want to say to you. I'm more of a lady than that. I'm a heathen, but I have my limits.

You aren't defending your faith against my false accusations. You haven't made (and never do make) a single point.

You just don't like it, any more than Juliann did, that there are black people who are or were LDS who aren't going to sit back and shut up or sing along with Gladys.

No, it's not about me. Talk about an old line. It often gets thrown at me by sanctimonious pricks who can't handle the fact that they're losing a debate. You never made a point, hence you were never in the running. It's about future black LDS who will have to go through the struggles I did...and either leave, or live with false hope like some of my friends, or live with cog dis, which is equally as repungiant. People like you don't help.

The FAIRboards are a sack of crap. And that has nothing to do with your faith. It has everything to do with a bunch of people who are of your faith who have lost their minds.

[_beastie]

Likewise you have no right to tell me that I can't defend my faith against your false accusations. You have no right to tell me that your false accusations against my faith aren't a function of cognitive distortions. You have no right to prevent me from standing up for my faith.

Wade, you can stand up for your faith all you want. The problem is that you seem to believe that the way to "stand up" for your faith is to pretend that critics of that faith are psychologically damaged. This is just one more tired reformulation of a very old plot in the LDS church: attack the critics. As I said elsewhere, I guess it's "progress" of some sort that the attacks aren't quite as blatant as they used to be (poor Martha, determined to be a whore from her mother's breast for revealing that BY asked her to be his plural wife), but I suspect it's more a reflection of an awareness of current PCness.

Now, there are two types of accusations against the church. One is a statement of one's personal experiences as a member of the church. There is no way another person can declare those "false", unless you were living in very close quarters with the accuser during the period of which the accuser speaks. The other is a statement of fact about the church's history or teachings. If they are "false", then the way to demonstrate they are false is with research.

So it is pointless to talk about "false" accusations if you are discussing another person's personal experiences within the LDS church. And it is pointless to focus on a critic's supposed psychological flaws INSTEAD of providing the refuting factual information if the supposed "falsehood" has to do with church history or teachings. It just makes you look like the pathetic weakling you are to do so.

[_Dr. Shades]

Which I was told nothing about, even as I told those little boys who knocked on my door that I had a problem with black people being racist against whites, even in churches today.

Hmm. This sounds interesting. Would you mind sharing any details you'd care to share about your conversion process? What questions you may have asked about the race issue in Mormonism, the answers they gave you, why they told you that joining the church would be the end of your problems, etc.?

Plus, if you don't mind my asking, what was the racial makeup of the ward you first started attending? If it was--how do I say this--unrepresentative of the local population, what was your reaction?