Especially for Wade - Cognitive Distortion #1

[_Who Knows]

Here is a plausible dynamic of hurt and anger and grief caused by perceptions and accusations of lying and deceit and false pretenses, etc.

1. Mr. A has been selling a revolutionary product that he firmly believes helps people feel better and live longer. He feels that it's the best product of its kind, and very beneficial for those who use it as it is designed. He believes that he has, in good faith, fairly and honestly represented his product to others--though, for practical and privacy reasons, he hasn't readily disclosed the library of data and research on the product and his history with the product, but knows that most of that information is accessible to those wishing to research it themselves.

However, Mr. A knows that it's impossible to really tell if the product actually works. Even so, he markets the product as if it will actually work for everybody. In his commercials, he proudly says that he "knows with every fiber of his being that the product is the only product that will help you feel better and live longer" and that "all of the other similar products are an abomination". He believes so strongly in his product, that he even sends out salesmen all over the world to market his product. These salesmen also proclaim that "they know" the product works (even though the product can't be proven to work).

Astonishingly to Mr. A, most people do not buy the product. In fact, the majority of people who try the product, find that it doesn't work for them. Even in the face of such a high failure rate, Mr. A continues to market his product as the only product that actually works, and continues to claim the he "knows beyond a shadow of a doubt" that the product does work.

2. Mr. B purchased Mr. A's product a long time ago, and believed in it and invested a lot of time and energy and money in the product over the years. However, recently Mr. B realized that the product doesn't work for him, and now believes that Mr. A lied about the product (believing that the product isn't what it is claimed to be), and that considerable time and energy and money was spent under false pretenses. Naturally, Mr. B was hurt and angered and felt a great loss, which led to his venting and grieving at a public gathering of others who felt the same way as him.

3. Mr. A learns of Mr. B's anger and venting, and he believes that he has been falsely accused and that he and his product have been wrongfully smeared, and that Mr. B is the one who is lying and deceiving. Naturally, this hurts and angers Mr. A and causes him to feel a great loss (not just the loss of a once loyal and beloved customer, the supposedly unwarranted loss of his reputation and the reputation of his product, but also the potential loss of other customers due to the perceived smearing). Mr. A then vents his anger at Mr. B and vents and grieves about Mr. B at a public gathering of others who feel the same way about Mr. B and others like him.

4. Mr. B learns what Mr. A has said about him, and believes that he has been falsely accused and that Mr. A is continuing to lie and deceive. Naturally, this causes Mr. B to be hurt and angered and thus vent and grieve.

5. And around-and-around the cycle goes.

Interestingly enough, while Mr. B is not alone in his belief that Mr. A has lied and his product is a fraud, there are numerous people who didn't experience this hurt/anger/grief dynamic with Mr. A and his product. For example, Mr. C believes firmly in the product, and thinks Mr. A has been honest, sufficiently forthright, and has acted in good faith.

Mr. D no longer believes in the product, but he agrees with Mr. C about Mr. A having been honest, forthright, and acting in good faith. Mr. D chalks it all up to a difference of opinion with no hard feelings either way, and suggests: "to each their own". However, Mr. D isn't left "to his own". Mr. A continues to hound Mr. D saying such things as "you're possessed by an evil spirit" or "you really still believe in the product, you just don't want to do what it takes for the product to work" or "the product doesn't allow you to drink and smoke, and you just want to drink and smoke" or "you never really believed in the product in the first place". Mr. A still continues to send his salesmen to Mr. D's home wanting to know "if there's anything they can do to help Mr. D regain his belief in the product". Additionally, some of Mr. D's family still believes in the product. They begin to treat him differently, and say some of the same things that Mr. A says.

Additionally, despite the extremely high failure rate of his product (>99%), combined with the fact that no one can prove either way whether the product actually works, Mr. A continues to market his product as the only true product on earth, because he "knows it works".

Question: "how can this dynamic and cycle of hurt, anger, and grief, be prevented, stopped, and resolved?"

[_Sam Harris]

Send Mr. A to a state-run mental institution, and get access to his files. Let all the folks who have used Mr. A's product have access to those files, and then make whatever decisions they will. I have a feeling that with Mr. A out of the picture, his customers will start to see more clearly, and realize that such myopic behavior towards those who have chosen not to use Mr. A's product is absurd. They will most likely then see that others should have the right to not use the product, just as much as they have the right to choose to.

[_Who Knows]

Some additional interesting items to note about this revolutionary new product:

- The salesmen use high pressure sales tactics to get people to buy the product. They counsel potential customers to not read up on the competition, and to not read anything negative from the competition because, afterall, 'you don't go to a toyota dealership to research nissans'. Additionally, they pressure you to purchase the product after only trying it out for a couple of weeks.

- The product requires a yearly subscription of 10% of your income - no matter what your financial situation is. Well, the word 'require' may not be totally correct. You can choose to pay your yearly subscription, but if you choose not to, then you won't get the benefits of the product.

- Purchasing the product is kind of like joining an exclusive club. So exclusive, that when someone gets married, only those who have officially purchased the product and are up to date on their yearly subscription fees may attend the wedding. NO EXCEPTIONS!

- After you purchase the product, you will be expected to be heavily involved in making the product work, as well as marketing the product. If you join before you're 19, you will be expected to do a full time sales rotation, where you could be sent anywhere in the world. During this 2 years, you will be expected to follow a heavily regimented routine given to you by Mr. A. Again - NO EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULES!

- Mr. A will not share his company's financial information with the public. In fact, he won't even share the information with those that have already purchased the product.

- No one is allowed to question the product or suggest ways to improve the product. Only Mr. A makes those types of decisions.

[_truth dancer]

And...

If Mr. B asserts the product is not working Mr. A will assert it is Mr. B's fault. Mr B. isn't following the directions correctly. No matter how hard Mr. B tries, over and over following each and every rule to get the product to work he just doesn't get the results he is promised. Even though millions of people cannot seem to get the product to work, Mr. A and his followers continue to demean Mr. B by suggesting he is at fault for the product not working.

:-(

~dancer~

[_moksha]

Is there ever a question of whether product A users have a right to use the product without being harrassed by those who have abandoned the product or self-appointed consumer protections specialists?

This question by the way, has applicability well beyond product A.

[_wenglund]

Here is a plausible dynamic of hurt and anger and grief caused by perceptions and accusations of lying and deceit and false pretenses, etc.

1. Mr. A has been selling a revolutionary product that he firmly believes helps people feel better and live longer. He feels that it's the best product of its kind, and very beneficial for those who use it as it is designed. He believes that he has, in good faith, fairly and honestly represented his product to others--though, for practical and privacy reasons, he hasn't readily disclosed the library of data and research on the product and his history with the product, but knows that most of that information is accessible to those wishing to research it themselves.

However, Mr. A knows that it's impossible to really tell if the product actually works. Even so, he markets the product as if it will actually work for everybody. In his commercials, he proudly says that he "knows with every fiber of his being that the product is the only product that will help you feel better and live longer" and that "all of the other similar products are an abomination". He believes so strongly in his product, that he even sends out salesmen all over the world to market his product. These salesmen also proclaim that "they know" the product works (even though the product can't be proven to work).

Astonishingly to Mr. A, most people do not buy the product. In fact, the majority of people who try the product, find that it doesn't work for them. Even in the face of such a high failure rate, Mr. A continues to market his product as the only product that actually works, and continues to claim the he "knows beyond a shadow of a doubt" that the product does work.

2. Mr. B purchased Mr. A's product a long time ago, and believed in it and invested a lot of time and energy and money in the product over the years. However, recently Mr. B realized that the product doesn't work for him, and now believes that Mr. A lied about the product (believing that the product isn't what it is claimed to be), and that considerable time and energy and money was spent under false pretenses. Naturally, Mr. B was hurt and angered and felt a great loss, which led to his venting and grieving at a public gathering of others who felt the same way as him.

3. Mr. A learns of Mr. B's anger and venting, and he believes that he has been falsely accused and that he and his product have been wrongfully smeared, and that Mr. B is the one who is lying and deceiving. Naturally, this hurts and angers Mr. A and causes him to feel a great loss (not just the loss of a once loyal and beloved customer, the supposedly unwarranted loss of his reputation and the reputation of his product, but also the potential loss of other customers due to the perceived smearing). Mr. A then vents his anger at Mr. B and vents and grieves about Mr. B at a public gathering of others who feel the same way about Mr. B and others like him.

4. Mr. B learns what Mr. A has said about him, and believes that he has been falsely accused and that Mr. A is continuing to lie and deceive. Naturally, this causes Mr. B to be hurt and angered and thus vent and grieve.

5. And around-and-around the cycle goes.

Interestingly enough, while Mr. B is not alone in his belief that Mr. A has lied and his product is a fraud, there are numerous people who didn't experience this hurt/anger/grief dynamic with Mr. A and his product. For example, Mr. C believes firmly in the product, and thinks Mr. A has been honest, sufficiently forthright, and has acted in good faith.

Mr. D no longer believes in the product, but he agrees with Mr. C about Mr. A having been honest, forthright, and acting in good faith. Mr. D chalks it all up to a difference of opinion with no hard feelings either way, and suggests: "to each their own". However, Mr. D isn't left "to his own". Mr. A continues to hound Mr. D saying such things as "you're possessed by an evil spirit" or "you really still believe in the product, you just don't want to do what it takes for the product to work" or "the product doesn't allow you to drink and smoke, and you just want to drink and smoke" or "you never really believed in the product in the first place". Mr. A still continues to send his salesmen to Mr. D's home wanting to know "if there's anything they can do to help Mr. D regain his belief in the product". Additionally, some of Mr. D's family still believes in the product. They begin to treat him differently, and say some of the same things that Mr. A says.

Additionally, despite the extremely high failure rate of his product (>99%), combined with the fact that no one can prove either way whether the product actually works, Mr. A continues to market his product as the only true product on earth, because he "knows it works".

Question: "how can this dynamic and cycle of hurt, anger, and grief, be prevented, stopped, and resolved?"

Is Mr. D involved in the dynamic and cycle of hurt, anger, and grief? If not, then the answer to your question is the same that I am vetting on the other thread.

If he is, then it may be wise to isolate this dynamic as its own dynamic. So, instead of the dynamic being a function of perceived lying, it is caused by perceived harrassment. In which case, the cycle will start with Mr. D (as you and others have characterized him, and then go next to Mr. E (who may voice the perspective that Moksha astutely raised).

Please advise.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Who Knows]

Is Mr. D involved in the dynamic and cycle of hurt, anger, and grief? If not, then the answer to your question is the same that I am vetting on the other thread.

If he is, then it may be wise to isolate this dynamic as its own dynamic. So, instead of the dynamic being a function of perceived lying, it is caused by perceived harrassment. In which case, the cycle will start with Mr. D (as you and others have characterized him, and then go next to Mr. E (who may voice the perspective that Moksha astutely raised).

Please advise.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Ahhh, close, but no cigar. I didn't see any WORKABLE solution Wade.

I also forgot to mention that Mr. A (prior to his involvement in this product) was arrested for fraud. Additionally, Mr. A claims that God and Jesus visited him, and gave him this product - and that this product was used by the ancient inhabitants of the americas.

Additionally, we also find out that Mr. A has been taking multiple wives, and keeping them a secret. Some of these wives were teenagers, and some of these wives were already married to other men. When confronted about the additional wives, Mr. A denies it, but word eventually leaks out.

Ok, back to the regularly scheduled program.

Good job bringing up the point about harrassment. Now, what's your WORKABLE solution?

Again, it's not important that Mr. A has been involved in fraud, and that he's been caught doing some shady things. As long has he truly believes in his product is all we're worried about here.

[_wenglund]

Is Mr. D involved in the dynamic and cycle of hurt, anger, and grief? If not, then the answer to your question is the same that I am vetting on the other thread.

If he is, then it may be wise to isolate this dynamic as its own dynamic. So, instead of the dynamic being a function of perceived lying, it is caused by perceived harrassment. In which case, the cycle will start with Mr. D (as you and others have characterized him, and then go next to Mr. E (who may voice the perspective that Moksha astutely raised).

Please advise.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Ahhh, close, but no cigar. I didn't see any WORKABLE solution Wade.

I also forgot to mention that Mr. A (prior to his involvement in this product) was arrested for fraud. Additionally, Mr. A claims that God and Jesus visited him, and gave him this product - and that this product was used by the ancient inhabitants of the americas.

Additionally, we also find out that Mr. A has been taking multiple wives, and keeping them a secret. Some of these wives were teenagers, and some of these wives were already married to other men. When confronted about the additional wives, Mr. A denies it, but word eventually leaks out.

Ok, back to the regularly scheduled program.

Good job bringing up the point about harrassment. Now, what's your WORKABLE solution?

Again, it's not important that Mr. A has been involved in fraud, and that he's been caught doing some shady things. As long has he truly believes in his product is all we're worried about here.

I am sorry, but you didn't answer my question about Mr. D, and possibly Mr. E.? If I am to help in answering your question, it would be good to know what specifically it is in reference to. If it is in reference to the cycle Mr. A and Mr. B are in, then I am IN THE PROCESS of vetting that answer on my thread (which is perhaps, among several reasons, why you haven't seen it yet--one cannot necessarily see that which has yet to be fully divulged).

However, if it has to do with Mr. D and E., then you will need to describe that cycle so that one can better detect what the dynamic is, and thus find a way to effectively eliminate the dynamic (this is a HUGE hint for where to look for the answer--assuming you are genuinely and sincerely interested, and not just lying). ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Who Knows]

I am sorry, but you didn't answer my question about Mr. D, and possibly Mr. E.?

I can't answer your question. The facts as they are laid out are what they are. Why are you asking me a question? This is an open discussion where there's no right or wrong answers. Answer it how you like given the facts as presented.

If I am to help in answering your question, it would be good to know what specifically it is in reference to. If it is in reference to the cycle Mr. A and Mr. B are in, then I am IN THE PROCESS of vetting that answer on my thread (which is perhaps, among several reasons, why you haven't seen it yet--one cannot necessarily see that which has yet to be fully divulged).

Like I said, the scenario is what it is. There is no right and wrong answer. I'm just looking for a WORKABLE solution.

However, if it has to do with Mr. D and E., then you will need to describe that cycle so that one can better detect what the dynamic is, and thus find a way to effectively eliminate the dynamic (this is a HUGE hint for where to look for the answer--assuming you are genuinely and sincerely interested, and not just lying). ;-)

Like I said, it is what it is. I'm looking for a WORKABLE solution. One that's so apparent, yet you're unwilling and/or unable to notice. The solution is right there! Come on Wade, you can do it!

[_wenglund]

I am sorry, but you didn't answer my question about Mr. D, and possibly Mr. E.?

I can't answer your question. The facts as they are laid out are what they are. Why are you asking me a question? This is an open discussion where there's no right or wrong answers. Answer it how you like given the facts as presented.

If I am to help in answering your question, it would be good to know what specifically it is in reference to. If it is in reference to the cycle Mr. A and Mr. B are in, then I am IN THE PROCESS of vetting that answer on my thread (which is perhaps, among several reasons, why you haven't seen it yet--one cannot necessarily see that which has yet to be fully divulged).

Like I said, the scenario is what it is. There is no right and wrong answer. I'm just looking for a WORKABLE solution.

However, if it has to do with Mr. D and E., then you will need to describe that cycle so that one can better detect what the dynamic is, and thus find a way to effectively eliminate the dynamic (this is a HUGE hint for where to look for the answer--assuming you are genuinely and sincerely interested, and not just lying). ;-)

Like I said, it is what it is. I'm looking for a WORKABLE solution. One that's so apparent, yet you're unwilling and/or unable to notice. The solution is right there! Come on Wade, you can do it!

Okay, this should appeal to your way of thinking: the solution is "what it is".

Thanks, -Wade Englund-