Especially for Wade - Cognitive Distortion #1

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_Who Knows
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Re: Especially for Wade - Cognitive Distortion #1

Post by _Who Knows »

wenglund wrote:Okay, this should appeal to your way of thinking: the solution is "what it is".


Ok, well, at least you're thinking Wade. But you're not thinking hard enough. That isn't really a WORKABLE solution now is it?

Come on, the solution is so close, it's on the tip of your nose.
_harmony
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Re: Especially for Wade - Cognitive Distortion #1

Post by _harmony »

Who Knows wrote:
wenglund wrote:Okay, this should appeal to your way of thinking: the solution is "what it is".


Ok, well, at least you're thinking Wade. But you're not thinking hard enough. That isn't really a WORKABLE solution now is it?

Come on, the solution is so close, it's on the tip of your nose.


No, no, no! That's not the way it goes. You're supposed to play Wade's game, not force him to play yours! He's supposed to have all the answers; you're supposed to be the dunce who has no answers, not the other way around. You're supposed to look like a fool, not him! You aren't playing by the r-u-u-u-les!
_Mercury
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Re: Especially for Wade - Cognitive Distortion #1

Post by _Mercury »

wenglund wrote:
Who Knows wrote:Here is a plausible dynamic of hurt and anger and grief caused by perceptions and accusations of lying and deceit and false pretenses, etc.

1. Mr. A has been selling a revolutionary product that he firmly believes helps people feel better and live longer. He feels that it's the best product of its kind, and very beneficial for those who use it as it is designed. He believes that he has, in good faith, fairly and honestly represented his product to others--though, for practical and privacy reasons, he hasn't readily disclosed the library of data and research on the product and his history with the product, but knows that most of that information is accessible to those wishing to research it themselves.

However, Mr. A knows that it's impossible to really tell if the product actually works. Even so, he markets the product as if it will actually work for everybody. In his commercials, he proudly says that he "knows with every fiber of his being that the product is the only product that will help you feel better and live longer" and that "all of the other similar products are an abomination". He believes so strongly in his product, that he even sends out salesmen all over the world to market his product. These salesmen also proclaim that "they know" the product works (even though the product can't be proven to work).

Astonishingly to Mr. A, most people do not buy the product. In fact, the majority of people who try the product, find that it doesn't work for them. Even in the face of such a high failure rate, Mr. A continues to market his product as the only product that actually works, and continues to claim the he "knows beyond a shadow of a doubt" that the product does work.

2. Mr. B purchased Mr. A's product a long time ago, and believed in it and invested a lot of time and energy and money in the product over the years. However, recently Mr. B realized that the product doesn't work for him, and now believes that Mr. A lied about the product (believing that the product isn't what it is claimed to be), and that considerable time and energy and money was spent under false pretenses. Naturally, Mr. B was hurt and angered and felt a great loss, which led to his venting and grieving at a public gathering of others who felt the same way as him.

3. Mr. A learns of Mr. B's anger and venting, and he believes that he has been falsely accused and that he and his product have been wrongfully smeared, and that Mr. B is the one who is lying and deceiving. Naturally, this hurts and angers Mr. A and causes him to feel a great loss (not just the loss of a once loyal and beloved customer, the supposedly unwarranted loss of his reputation and the reputation of his product, but also the potential loss of other customers due to the perceived smearing). Mr. A then vents his anger at Mr. B and vents and grieves about Mr. B at a public gathering of others who feel the same way about Mr. B and others like him.

4. Mr. B learns what Mr. A has said about him, and believes that he has been falsely accused and that Mr. A is continuing to lie and deceive. Naturally, this causes Mr. B to be hurt and angered and thus vent and grieve.

5. And around-and-around the cycle goes.

Interestingly enough, while Mr. B is not alone in his belief that Mr. A has lied and his product is a fraud, there are numerous people who didn't experience this hurt/anger/grief dynamic with Mr. A and his product. For example, Mr. C believes firmly in the product, and thinks Mr. A has been honest, sufficiently forthright, and has acted in good faith.

Mr. D no longer believes in the product, but he agrees with Mr. C about Mr. A having been honest, forthright, and acting in good faith. Mr. D chalks it all up to a difference of opinion with no hard feelings either way, and suggests: "to each their own". However, Mr. D isn't left "to his own". Mr. A continues to hound Mr. D saying such things as "you're possessed by an evil spirit" or "you really still believe in the product, you just don't want to do what it takes for the product to work" or "the product doesn't allow you to drink and smoke, and you just want to drink and smoke" or "you never really believed in the product in the first place". Mr. A still continues to send his salesmen to Mr. D's home wanting to know "if there's anything they can do to help Mr. D regain his belief in the product". Additionally, some of Mr. D's family still believes in the product. They begin to treat him differently, and say some of the same things that Mr. A says.

Additionally, despite the extremely high failure rate of his product (>99%), combined with the fact that no one can prove either way whether the product actually works, Mr. A continues to market his product as the only true product on earth, because he "knows it works".

Question: "how can this dynamic and cycle of hurt, anger, and grief, be prevented, stopped, and resolved?"


Is Mr. D involved in the dynamic and cycle of hurt, anger, and grief? If not, then the answer to your question is the same that I am vetting on the other thread.

If he is, then it may be wise to isolate this dynamic as its own dynamic. So, instead of the dynamic being a function of perceived lying, it is caused by perceived harrassment. In which case, the cycle will start with Mr. D (as you and others have characterized him, and then go next to Mr. E (who may voice the perspective that Moksha astutely raised).

Please advise.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Heres the ultimate deal breaker with your analogy wade. A rape victim could not be outraged at the situation you are bringing paralells to.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_wenglund
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Re: Especially for Wade - Cognitive Distortion #1

Post by _wenglund »

Who Knows wrote:
wenglund wrote:Okay, this should appeal to your way of thinking: the solution is "what it is".


Ok, well, at least you're thinking Wade. But you're not thinking hard enough. That isn't really a WORKABLE solution now is it?

Come on, the solution is so close, it's on the tip of your nose.


Actually, if your "thinking" is correct, and it "works" in terms of your description of the problem, then logically it should work in terms of the solution. If not, I would be pleased if you, like me in my thread, would rationally explain why it doesn't work.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Who Knows
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Re: Especially for Wade - Cognitive Distortion #1

Post by _Who Knows »

wenglund wrote:Actually, if your "thinking" is correct, and it "works" in terms of your description of the problem, then logically it should work in terms of the solution. If not, I would be pleased if you, like me in my thread, would rationally explain why it doesn't work.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


[echo]Sorry, I think it is critical that the mutually WORKABLE solution is figured out by the Mr. B's of the world as well as the Mr. A's (at step 3). I have provided enough obvious clues, that I am confident you all will figure it out. [/echo]
_Sam Harris
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Re: Especially for Wade - Cognitive Distortion #1

Post by _Sam Harris »

Who Knows wrote:
wenglund wrote:Is Mr. D involved in the dynamic and cycle of hurt, anger, and grief? If not, then the answer to your question is the same that I am vetting on the other thread.

If he is, then it may be wise to isolate this dynamic as its own dynamic. So, instead of the dynamic being a function of perceived lying, it is caused by perceived harrassment. In which case, the cycle will start with Mr. D (as you and others have characterized him, and then go next to Mr. E (who may voice the perspective that Moksha astutely raised).

Please advise.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Ahhh, close, but no cigar. I didn't see any WORKABLE solution Wade.



ROFL!!! Wonderful!

Wade's workable solution is everyone go away and let me do what I do...and let my church do what they want to to you, your life, etc.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_wenglund
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Re: Especially for Wade - Cognitive Distortion #1

Post by _wenglund »

VegasRefugee wrote:Heres the ultimate deal breaker with your analogy wade. A rape victim could not be outraged at the situation you are bringing paralells to.


You raise a good point that is worth reclarifying. Were the issue with the Church (allegedly lying about what it claims to be) to be as self-evident and indisputable, not to mention of the same magnitude, as "rape", then I could see how it may be a "deal breaker". However, Mr. D certainly didn't think that it was. So, is it NECESSARY that Mr. B view it that way? Might the fact that Mr. D wasn't sucked into, or locked into, the dynamic and cycle of hurt and anger and grief like Mr. B and later Mr. A, perhaps give us an indication of what might WORK for highly disputable issues like whether the Church is lying about what it claims to be?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_wenglund
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Re: Especially for Wade - Cognitive Distortion #1

Post by _wenglund »

Who Knows wrote:
wenglund wrote:Actually, if your "thinking" is correct, and it "works" in terms of your description of the problem, then logically it should work in terms of the solution. If not, I would be pleased if you, like me in my thread, would rationally explain why it doesn't work.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


[echo]Sorry, I think it is critical that the mutually WORKABLE solution is figured out by the Mr. B's of the world as well as the Mr. A's (at step 3). I have provided enough obvious clues, that I am confident you all will figure it out. [/echo]


Good point. That makes sense.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
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Re: Especially for Wade - Cognitive Distortion #1

Post by _Runtu »

wenglund wrote:
VegasRefugee wrote:Heres the ultimate deal breaker with your analogy wade. A rape victim could not be outraged at the situation you are bringing paralells to.


You raise a good point that is worth reclarifying. Were the issue with the Church (allegedly lying about what it claims to be) to be as self-evident and indisputable, not to mention of the same magnitude, as "rape", then I could see how it may be a "deal breaker". However, Mr. D certainly didn't think that it was. So, is it NECESSARY that Mr. B view it that way? Might the fact that Mr. D wasn't sucked into, or locked into, the dynamic and cycle of hurt and anger and grief like Mr. B and later Mr. A, perhaps give us an indication of what might WORK for highly disputable issues like whether the Church is lying about what it claims to be?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


That's the problem with your entire analogy. To anyone who does not have an emotional or psychological need for the church to be "true," it is painfully self-evident and indisputable that the church has in fact misrepresented itself. That's why your analogy breaks down; you seem to want to treat leaving the church as a "no-fault" separation. Here's a hint: those few exmos I know who didn't experience anger know that the church lied to them. They didn't just decide that the church "was not for them."

I'm sorry if I was a bit harsh with you, but all I've seen in your posts is a desire to convince everyone that the church is a good-faith actor. It's not and never has been.
_wenglund
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Re: Especially for Wade - Cognitive Distortion #1

Post by _wenglund »

GIMR wrote:
Who Knows wrote:
wenglund wrote:Is Mr. D involved in the dynamic and cycle of hurt, anger, and grief? If not, then the answer to your question is the same that I am vetting on the other thread.

If he is, then it may be wise to isolate this dynamic as its own dynamic. So, instead of the dynamic being a function of perceived lying, it is caused by perceived harrassment. In which case, the cycle will start with Mr. D (as you and others have characterized him, and then go next to Mr. E (who may voice the perspective that Moksha astutely raised).

Please advise.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Ahhh, close, but no cigar. I didn't see any WORKABLE solution Wade.


ROFL!!! Wonderful!

Wade's workable solution is everyone go away and let me do what I do...and let my church do what they want to to you, your life, etc.


I wasn't aware of that. It was good of you to let me know what I think--even though from where I sit, it is not only unfamiliar to me, but somewhat ascue from what I actually think I think.

Do you find it a WORKABLE strategy to tell others what they think, even though they are certain they don't think that?

Would it WORK in reverse were I and others to do that with you?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
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