Second Thoughts

[_Bond...James Bond]

He may not have started Mormonism for personal gain, but he certainly gained from starting Mormonism.

Bond

How did he gain?

Fame, Followers, Admiration. Those sound better than small time farmer in upstate New York.

Bond

[_Who Knows]

Haggard did have very strong spiritual experiences, so he would claim that "God spoke" to him. In the sense that he was the leader of 30 million Evangelicals, I am sure many considered him a prophet, among his congregation. No, he gave no new revelation, but he taught that homosexuality was wrong, sinful, and would lead to hell - while he was visiting a gay man.

So by your definition Haggard was a fraud. Agreed, or not?

I don't think so - in the same sense that I don't think Hinckley is a fraud. Hinkley probably truly believes what he's doing, and I don't think he's claimed to have any personal visits with God, nor received something tangible from god. So I don't think he's a fraud.

Joseph Smith on the other hand is a totally different story.

[_Who Knows]

He may not have started Mormonism for personal gain, but he certainly gained from starting Mormonism.

Bond

How did he gain?

Fame, Followers, Admiration. Those sound better than small time farmer in upstate New York.

Bond

You forgot - women - lots of women.

[_Bond...James Bond]

He may not have started Mormonism for personal gain, but he certainly gained from starting Mormonism.

Bond

How did he gain?

Fame, Followers, Admiration. Those sound better than small time farmer in upstate New York.

Bond

You forgot - women - lots of women.

Didn't want to put that cause then they yell: Sources of sex?

Bond

[_Ray A]

Fame, Followers, Admiration. Those sound better than small time farmer in upstate New York.

Bond

What about the persecution? The tarring and feathering. The apostasies, the betrayals. What about him saying thanks to God that the burden of the work was off his shoulders when he commissioned the Twelve? What about him saying thanks to God that others had received a witness and he didn't need to carry the full burden anymore? What about him shedding tears of thanks for his parents finding the truth? What about him crying in a corner of a room and asking God to help his persecutors see the truth? Have you read his personal journals?

And finally, he's dead at 38. Is this what you call gain? Like the Bakers, the Swaggarts, the Haggards, all of whom were millionaires? Like Billy Graham, now retired to his wealth? None of them even had to face angry mobs, betrayals, persecution, and finally ending up riddled with bullets.

Is this what you call gain?

[_Ray A]

You forgot - women - lots of women.

So you think that was a "reward"? You really think that was "gain" since this led directly to his death? I mean, he could have done like all the televangelists and not tell anyone. If he wanted to gain from polygamy, why did he not do like Bennett, you know, a bit on the side. Why did he teach this as a full-fledged doctrine revealed to him by God, and then teach others, and then record the revelation to give to his wife, to the anger of his wife.

Surely there must have been a better way to "get a bit on the side", don't you think?

Lastly, why did skeptical Emma stand by her husband? Do you think she thought he was a fraud?

[_Bond...James Bond]

Fame, Followers, Admiration. Those sound better than small time farmer in upstate New York.

Bond

What about the persecution? The tarring and feathering. The apostasies, the betrayals. What about him saying thanks to God that the burden of the work was off his shoulders when he commissioned the Twelve? What about him saying thanks to God that others had received a witness and he didn't need to carry the full burden anymore? What about him shedding tears of thanks for his parents finding the truth? What about him crying in a corner of a room and asking God to help his persecutors see the truth? Have you read his personal journals?

And finally, he's dead at 38. Is this what you call gain? Like the Bakers, the Swaggarts, the Haggards, all of whom were millionaires? Like Billy Graham, now retired to his wealth? None of them even had to face angry mobs, betrayals, persecution, and finally ending up riddled with bullets.

Is this what you call gain?

You're right it really sounds sucky. Perhaps he should have told that angel to shove it and stayed a farmer or whatever in Podunk.

Personal journals and opinions of talking to God? Aren't those just a tad biased?

Bond

[_Ray A]

You're right it really sounds sucky. Perhaps he should have told that angel to shove it and stayed a farmer or whatever in Podunk.

Personal journals and opinions of talking to God? Aren't those just a tad biased?

Bond

Perhaps he should have, but instead he said he "knows the work is of God" and could never deny it. In fact, he said that if he could back out, he would have.

Personal journals reveal the mind of a person, even with bias. I suggest you read The Papers of Joseph Smith (two volumes), and then tell me if you think a fraud would record all this so openly. Credit card fraud was mentioned earlier. Do credit card frauds keep daily journals about their activities, knowing that one day it's going to be public? Do they have personal secretaries like William Clayton recording all this?

Did William Clayton think Joseph was a fraud?

[_MormonMendacity]

Let me engage in the same reasoning the apologists do:

What about the persecution? The tarring and feathering. The apostasies, the betrayals.

Are you talking about the people he betrayed? Many criminals have been tarred and feathered and still continued to be criminals.

What about him saying thanks to God that the burden of the work was off his shoulders when he commissioned the Twelve? What about him saying thanks to God that others had received a witness and he didn't need to carry the full burden anymore? What about him shedding tears of thanks for his parents finding the truth? What about him crying in a corner of a room and asking God to help his persecutors see the truth?

I think the Bakkers did a lot of crying. I know Robert Tilton did. "What ere thou art act well thy part!"

Have you read his personal journals?

Have you read the Quorum of the Fifty minutes? Why not? I'll tell you why: because they are under lock and key in the Church Archives. We can only speculate about the incriminating evidence they hold. The Joseph Smith Papers do expose some pretty damaging stuff but I think he was acting. I think he kept up the charade in his private writings.

And finally, he's dead at 38. Is this what you call gain?

Uh...I don't think that was part of his plan. I think he hoped the con would survive like it had so many times before.

Like the Bakers, the Swaggarts, the Haggards, all of whom were millionaires? Like Billy Graham, now retired to his wealth? None of them even had to face angry mobs, betrayals, persecution, and finally ending up riddled with bullets.

Ray, the Bakkers did too get confronted by angry mobs. I remember watching him get arrested and angry Christians screaming at him. The only difference was it didn't happen on the Western Frontier where they could have been lynched.

Bakker was indicted on federal charges of fraud, tax evasion, and racketeering. In 1989, after trial in Charlotte, Judge Robert Potter convicted Bakker of fraud and conspiring to commit fraud and sentenced him to 45 years in federal prison. Bakker's associate, Richard Dortch, senior vice-president of PTL and associate pastor of Heritage Village Church, also went to prison. In 1992, Bakker and his wife Tammy Faye were divorced at her request. Billy Graham visited Bakker in prison, as did his son, Franklin Graham, repeatedly saying, "Jim Bakker is my friend."

[_Bond...James Bond]

You're right it really sounds sucky. Perhaps he should have told that angel to shove it and stayed a farmer or whatever in Podunk.

Personal journals and opinions of talking to God? Aren't those just a tad biased?

Bond

Perhaps he should have, but instead he said he "knows the work is of God" and could never deny it. In fact, he said that if he could back out, he would have.

Personal journals reveal the mind of a person, even with bias. I suggest you read The Papers of Joseph Smith (two volumes), and then tell me if you think a fraud would record all this so openly. Credit card fraud was mentioned earlier. Do credit card frauds keep daily journals about their activities, knowing that one day it's going to be public? Do they have personal secretaries like William Clayton recording all this?

Did William Clayton think Joseph was a fraud?

I believe there is a difference between a credit card forger and someone thinks they're the prophet of God. A forger's just a criminal, while the prophet has to justify their religious vision.

Bond