Standard narratives and anger

[_Mister Scratch]

Please demonstrate where I have supposedly "basically twisted" CBT, and also demonstrate how that alleged "twisting" is "akin to brainwashing".

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Who do you think you're kidding here, Wade? Go back and look at the separate CBT thread that you started earlier today. You are laying out CBT in a by-the-numbers fashion so that you can then make the next step towards explaining how folks who are angry with the Church are suffering from "cognitive distortions." Or am I wrong? Are you bringing up the topic of CBT just for the heck of it, despite the fact that, on its own, it has no bearing on Mormonism whatsoever, particularly in lieu of your Godwin's-Law-violating Holocaust example?

[_Who Knows]

Your assuming that calling something "venting" and "grieving" makes it so. Your assuming that there is a need for "recovery". The truth is, while these fine folks may believe they have good cause to "vent" and "grieve" and "recover", they really don't. That perception is born of cognitive distortions, and it is a delusional way of masking the real cause of their angst. You are unwittingly enabling their delusion by also assuming it is real and valid. They aren't going to address the real cause of their angst and dysfunction by "venting" and "grieving". In fact, they may simply become further deluded.

You never specified the "bad" forms of anger and grief (other than to say those kinds that are offensive to believers), and you never explained to anyone's satisfaction why it was a cognitive distortion to think the church was not a good-faith actor.

So, in essence, if we feel or express anything that might be offensive to a Mormon, we are guilty of cognitive distortion. And if we find ample evidence suggesting that the church is not in fact honest about what it claims to be, we are also guilty of cognitive distortion. Do you not see how one-sided this approach is? How can you be an honest broker in helping people resolve their feelings when you are predisposed to see their feelings as irrational and distorted?

Looks like Wade's got some of his own cognitive distortion to work out. Here are the list of 10 from wikipedia:

1. All-or-nothing thinking - Thinking of things in absolute terms, like "always", "every" or "never". Few aspects of human behavior are so absolute. (See false dilemma.)
2. Overgeneralization - Taking isolated cases and using them to make wide generalizations. (See hasty generalization.)
3. Mental filter - Focusing exclusively on certain, usually negative or upsetting, aspects of something while ignoring the rest, like a tiny imperfection in a piece of clothing. (See misleading vividness.)
4. Disqualifying the positive - Continually "shooting down" positive experiences for arbitrary, ad hoc reasons. (See special pleading.)
5. Jumping to conclusions - Assuming something negative where there is no evidence to support it. Two specific subtypes are also identified:
* Mind reading - Assuming the intentions of others.
* Fortune telling - Predicting that things will turn out badly. (See slippery slope.)
6. Magnification and Minimization - Exaggerating negatives and understating positives. Often the positive characteristics of other people are exaggerated and negatives understated. There is one subtype of magnification:
* Catastrophizing - Focusing on the worst possible outcome, however unlikely, or thinking that a situation is unbearable or impossible when it is really just uncomfortable.
7. Emotional reasoning - Making decisions and arguments based on how you feel rather than objective reality. (See appeal to consequences.)
8. Making should statements - Concentrating on what you think "should" or ought to be rather than the actual situation you are faced with, or having rigid rules which you think should always apply no matter what the circumstances are. (See wishful thinking.)
9. Labelling - Related to overgeneralization, explaining by naming. Rather than describing the specific behavior, you assign a label to someone or yourself that puts them in absolute and unalterable terms.
10. Personalization (or attribution) - Assuming you or others directly caused things when that may not have been the case. (See illusion of control.) When applied to others this is an example of blame.

I think Wades views on the angry exmo fit almost every one of those.

[cacheman]

Looks like Wade's got some of his own cognitive distortion to work out. Here are the list of 10 from wikipedia:

1. All-or-nothing thinking - Thinking of things in absolute terms, like "always", "every" or "never". Few aspects of human behavior are so absolute. (See false dilemma.)
2. Overgeneralization - Taking isolated cases and using them to make wide generalizations. (See hasty generalization.)
3. Mental filter - Focusing exclusively on certain, usually negative or upsetting, aspects of something while ignoring the rest, like a tiny imperfection in a piece of clothing. (See misleading vividness.)
4. Disqualifying the positive - Continually "shooting down" positive experiences for arbitrary, ad hoc reasons. (See special pleading.)
5. Jumping to conclusions - Assuming something negative where there is no evidence to support it. Two specific subtypes are also identified:
* Mind reading - Assuming the intentions of others.
* Fortune telling - Predicting that things will turn out badly. (See slippery slope.)
6. Magnification and Minimization - Exaggerating negatives and understating positives. Often the positive characteristics of other people are exaggerated and negatives understated. There is one subtype of magnification:
* Catastrophizing - Focusing on the worst possible outcome, however unlikely, or thinking that a situation is unbearable or impossible when it is really just uncomfortable.
7. Emotional reasoning - Making decisions and arguments based on how you feel rather than objective reality. (See appeal to consequences.)
8. Making should statements - Concentrating on what you think "should" or ought to be rather than the actual situation you are faced with, or having rigid rules which you think should always apply no matter what the circumstances are. (See wishful thinking.)
9. Labelling - Related to overgeneralization, explaining by naming. Rather than describing the specific behavior, you assign a label to someone or yourself that puts them in absolute and unalterable terms.
10. Personalization (or attribution) - Assuming you or others directly caused things when that may not have been the case. (See illusion of control.) When applied to others this is an example of blame.

This is a good illustration of how easy it is to categorize other people's thinking as distorted, particularly if we disagree with them vehemently. Taking Wade's illustration, one would not expect the Nazi concentration camp guards to be objective about the prisoners' cognitive distortions. Likewise, we exmos are probably not impartial about Wade's cognitive processes.
I think Wades views on the angry exmo fits almost every one of those.

[_desert_vulture]

Let me be more precise. You suggested that any anger or grief associated with leaving Mormonism was a result of cognitive distortion.

Hmm, cognitive distortion? Wow. Having actually experience the disillusionment of discovering Mormonism is NOT what it claims to be, and dealing the with the accompanying emotional roller-coaster, I can safely say that there is no distortion whatsoever. In fact, its the exact opposite. Your senses become heightened to a new, completely open sense of wonder and amazement as your mind liberates you from the many contradictions within Mormonism. Some have referred to this moment as an epiphany. It is far from cognitive distortion. I would describe it as a cognitive rebirth, or an objective assessment of reality.

The anger and pain are only side effects of this type of liberating mental awakening. The anger is usually a reaction to the perceived loss from operating under erroneous premises for so long, and the frustration is a reaction to a feeling of helplessness or freefall, from trying to determine what course to pursue after the mental bonds have been broken. These are temporary emotions, and I believe they only happen to some people upon their awakening from the whitewashed version of Mormonism. Others simply understand, and move on, without losing sleep over it. Personally, I lost some sleep. But cognitive distortion does not describe the process at all, it really doesn't. Sorry.

Sorry, dv, you're just plain wrong. Here's what Wade had to say about the anger and pain you experienced:

Your assuming that calling something "venting" and "grieving" makes it so. Your assuming that there is a need for "recovery". The truth is, while these fine folks may believe they have good cause to "vent" and "grieve" and "recover", they really don't. That perception is born of cognitive distortions, and it is a delusional way of masking the real cause of their angst. You are unwittingly enabling their delusion by also assuming it is real and valid. They aren't going to address the real cause of their angst and dysfunction by "venting" and "grieving". In fact, they may simply become further deluded.

Hmmm. So all of my pain was a self-imposed delusion. Boy. I'm sure glad to know that. It really explains a lot to me. Now, I know as a surety that Wade is a true messenger sent by Father.

Come on Wade. Get real. This is real pain people are going through here buddy. Its real, its not a delusion. I'm BIC, RM, MIT, 5thGen, yadda, yadda. So is my wife. I don't wanna be mean, I really don't, but wake up and smell the coffee. (Wait, Postum...-sorry-:)) Seriously, you cannot be truthful and claim that people aren't going through real pain when they discover the church isn't what it claims to be. Many people have awakenings triggered by a boatload of shelved doctrines laying around unsolved, and unanswered for years. Then, one day, by chance, they all come toppling down. This is not a rehearsed narrative. I had never even participated in a discussion board until after my disillusionment/epiphany phase had passed. I never knew there was a pattern. It was only when I found NOM and FLAK that I discovered others like me, and our stories resonated with each other. Try to be open to the fact that this is happening, because it is. The whole DAMU community is composed of people, who for one reason or another, started examining the church's many claims and discovered them lacking. I am not saying the church is patently false, or that it is not good. I think it has truth and good in it. I am a fully active member and hold a calling, and am a home teacher, for heaven's sake. I'm just saying that people are, and will continue to be disillusioned with their religion and have new spiritual awakenings when they are made aware of facts that do not fit their sugar-coated version of reality.

I've talked to many people online about this. Shelved issues could include: early apostles and leaders getting excommunicated, not feeling any different after baptism, not being able to do any geneology due to lack of records, learning that Spaniards brought horses to America, learning of the 19th century coincidental doctrines found in the Book of Mormon, learning that excuses for polygamy were made up, missionary focus on numbers and not actual conversion, early church leader's denial of evolution, steel in the Book of Mormon without evidence, Cain visiting early GAs, literal beliefs about a global flood and Tower of Babel, acts of unrighteous dominion by leaders, learning that Emma Smith left the church, learning the Joseph Smith's children left the church, learning about things like racism-BoA-garments AFTER taking the discussions, learning that Joseph Smith saw his brother Alvin in the CK BEFORE the restoration, learning that the apostacy condemned all people for over 1800 years, learning that Jesus saved people on all planets, the contradiction between free agency and forced obedience, feeling the coincidence of being born into the one and only true church and America, wondering why God loves one group of his creations more than another group, seeing all the youth leaders being the sons and daughters of ward leaders, seeing all the bad examples at BYU, wondering why Joseph Smith saw a flesh and blood God but Lectures on Faith teaches us God is a spirit, Bruce McConkie teaching that evolution is a heresy, wondering about temple clothes, not understanding the death penalties in the temple, not understanding why the death penalties were removed, hearing differing conflicting versions of the First Vision story, judgmental members, unfairness of denying the Priesthood on skin color and nose shape, learning of ancient civilizations over 6,000 years ago, dinosaurs, the priesthood ban "Curse of Cain" contradicting AoF #2, the hundreds of revelations received by Joseph Smith and the subsequent silence of God, people outside our religion living happy-fulfilling lives, more love witnessed in homes outside Mormonism, only righteous Mormons can be together forever-not families, the unknown delay of the second coming, Lucy Harris' incredible influence on the restoration, the Book of Abraham not being an actual translation of the papyrii, the reconstructed facsimiles, other Christians being more christ-like than most Mormons, the small percentage of people who will be eligible for the highest degree of the CK, priesthood blessings that don't work, the simplicity of the new testament gospel compared with the complexity of modern Mormonism, the lack of actual gospel discussion in church, the lack of service to those in need-but a focus on service to other Mormons, leaders called by inspiration are later discovered to be adulterers or child-molesters or liars (i.e. Paul Dunn, George P. Lee), the salamander letter and the cover-up from the police, BY's doctrine of blood atonement, BY's teaching that Adam is God, etc. etc. etc. etc.

I just picked a few off the top of my head. I could go on and on. Especially with specific examples from church history. After a while the shelf just collapses, under so much weight. A person decides to make an honest inquiry and realizes that what he/she has been taught all their lives is not exactly true. This usually starts a more detailed inquiry, just to make sure. And then the real hard core studying begins, usually 4-8 hours a day.

There is no delusional cause of angst. All of those issues above, and a myriad more are the cause of the angst Wade. The angst is born of being taught information that conflicts with historical reality. That's all. I am very glad that I am over the pain. But since this happens so frequently, I can see how someone who has never experienced it could try to artificially reconstruct my experience as some type of delusional journey. Let me assure you, it is no delusion, it is reality.

[_wenglund]

What I find untenable is the suggestion that any emotional response to leaving the church is a priori a result of cognitive distortion.

I agree. Such a sweeping suggestion would be untenable--as untenable as assuming that such a suggestion has been made.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Let me be more precise. You suggested that any anger or grief associated with leaving Mormonism was a result of cognitive distortion.

Your more precise assumption about what I supposedly suggested, while less sweeping, is still untenable.

I was very careful to qualify my statements with the important "may", and I had in mind specific forms of anger and grief (not just in terms of intensity and duration, but also in terms of causation). In fact, I intentionally isolated a specific causation in my thread on Cognitive Distortions--i.e. thinking the Church had lied, deceived, and not acting in good faith about what it claims to be.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Here's what you said, Wade:

Your assuming that calling something "venting" and "grieving" makes it so. Your assuming that there is a need for "recovery". The truth is, while these fine folks may believe they have good cause to "vent" and "grieve" and "recover", they really don't. That perception is born of cognitive distortions, and it is a delusional way of masking the real cause of their angst. You are unwittingly enabling their delusion by also assuming it is real and valid. They aren't going to address the real cause of their angst and dysfunction by "venting" and "grieving". In fact, they may simply become further deluded.

You never specified the "bad" forms of anger and grief (other than to say those kinds that are offensive to believers), and you never explained to anyone's satisfaction why it was a cognitive distortion to think the church was not a good-faith actor.

So, in essence, if we feel or express anything that might be offensive to a Mormon, we are guilty of cognitive distortion. And if we find ample evidence suggesting that the church is not in fact honest about what it claims to be, we are also guilty of cognitive distortion. Do you not see how one-sided this approach is? How can you be an honest broker in helping people resolve their feelings when you are predisposed to see their feelings as irrational and distorted?

That is not all I said on the matter. The context of the quote was intended to explain how I believe liz was enabling people here, and not an explication of what specific cognitive distortions I had in mind. I did not use the word "any" (as you suggest that I did). My quoted statement does not negate the fact that I had specific causations of anger and grief in mind. My quoted statement does not negate the fact that I had intentionally specified a causation of anger and grief in the noted thread. My quoted statement cannot reasonably be interpreted to mean that "anything that might be offensive to a Mormon" is a cognitive distortion. In other words, your more precise assumtion is untenable.

As for explaining to your satisfaction why it is a cognitive distortion to think the Church was not a good faith actor, as previously mentioned I recognized that certain key principles of CBT were absent in relation to most participants here, and thus it would have been counterproductive to proceed to the point of socratically addressing the cognitive distortions. The discussion didn't move beyond the foundation stage of getting a buy-in that there are other ways for those who have lost faith to view the Church in terms of good faith.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

Hmmm. So all of my pain was a self-imposed delusion. Boy. I'm sure glad to know that. It really explains a lot to me. Now, I know as a surety that Wade is a true messenger sent by Father.

Come on Wade. Get real. This is real pain people are going through here buddy. Its real, its not a delusion. I'm BIC, RM, MIT, 5thGen, yadda, yadda. So is my wife. I don't wanna be mean, I really don't, but wake up and smell the coffee. (Wait, Postum...-sorry-:)) Seriously, you cannot be truthful and claim that people aren't going through real pain when they discover the church isn't what it claims to be. Many people have awakenings triggered by a boatload of shelved doctrines laying around unsolved, and unanswered for years. Then, one day, by chance, they all come toppling down. This is not a rehearsed narrative. I had never even participated in a discussion board until after my disillusionment/epiphany phase had passed. I never knew there was a pattern. It was only when I found NOM and FLAK that I discovered others like me, and our stories resonated with each other. Try to be open to the fact that this is happening, because it is. The whole DAMU community is composed of people, who for one reason or another, started examining the church's many claims and discovered them lacking. I am not saying the church is patently false, or that it is not good. I think it has truth and good in it. I am a fully active member and hold a calling, and am a home teacher, for heaven's sake. I'm just saying that people are, and will continue to be disillusioned with their religion and have new spiritual awakenings when they are made aware of facts that do not fit their sugar-coated version of reality.

I've talked to many people online about this. Shelved issues could include: early apostles and leaders getting excommunicated, not feeling any different after baptism, not being able to do any geneology due to lack of records, learning that Spaniards brought horses to America, learning of the 19th century coincidental doctrines found in the Book of Mormon, learning that excuses for polygamy were made up, missionary focus on numbers and not actual conversion, early church leader's denial of evolution, steel in the Book of Mormon without evidence, Cain visiting early GAs, literal beliefs about a global flood and Tower of Babel, acts of unrighteous dominion by leaders, learning that Emma Smith left the church, learning the Joseph Smith's children left the church, learning about things like racism-BoA-garments AFTER taking the discussions, learning that Joseph Smith saw his brother Alvin in the CK BEFORE the restoration, learning that the apostacy condemned all people for over 1800 years, learning that Jesus saved people on all planets, the contradiction between free agency and forced obedience, feeling the coincidence of being born into the one and only true church and America, wondering why God loves one group of his creations more than another group, seeing all the youth leaders being the sons and daughters of ward leaders, seeing all the bad examples at BYU, wondering why Joseph Smith saw a flesh and blood God but Lectures on Faith teaches us God is a spirit, Bruce McConkie teaching that evolution is a heresy, wondering about temple clothes, not understanding the death penalties in the temple, not understanding why the death penalties were removed, hearing differing conflicting versions of the First Vision story, judgmental members, unfairness of denying the Priesthood on skin color and nose shape, learning of ancient civilizations over 6,000 years ago, dinosaurs, the priesthood ban "Curse of Cain" contradicting AoF #2, the hundreds of revelations received by Joseph Smith and the subsequent silence of God, people outside our religion living happy-fulfilling lives, more love witnessed in homes outside Mormonism, only righteous Mormons can be together forever-not families, the unknown delay of the second coming, Lucy Harris' incredible influence on the restoration, the Book of Abraham not being an actual translation of the papyrii, the reconstructed facsimiles, other Christians being more christ-like than most Mormons, the small percentage of people who will be eligible for the highest degree of the CK, priesthood blessings that don't work, the simplicity of the new testament gospel compared with the complexity of modern Mormonism, the lack of actual gospel discussion in church, the lack of service to those in need-but a focus on service to other Mormons, leaders called by inspiration are later discovered to be adulterers or child-molesters or liars (i.e. Paul Dunn, George P. Lee), the salamander letter and the cover-up from the police, BY's doctrine of blood atonement, BY's teaching that Adam is God, etc. etc. etc. etc.

I just picked a few off the top of my head. I could go on and on. Especially with specific examples from church history. After a while the shelf just collapses, under so much weight. A person decides to make an honest inquiry and realizes that what he/she has been taught all their lives is not exactly true. This usually starts a more detailed inquiry, just to make sure. And then the real hard core studying begins, usually 4-8 hours a day.

There is no delusional cause of angst. All of those issues above, and a myriad more are the cause of the angst Wade. The angst is born of being taught information that conflicts with historical reality. That's all. I am very glad that I am over the pain. But since this happens so frequently, I can see how someone who has never experienced it could try to artificially reconstruct my experience as some type of delusional journey. Let me assure you, it is no delusion, it is reality.

No one is suggesting that the pain isn't real. No one is even suggesting that there isn't a rational basis for the pain--i.e. given the premises or cognitions driving the pain. In fact, I have, on several occasions, explicitly said that there was. What I am suggesting is that the pain MAY be a function of cognitive distortions.

In a thread mentioned above, I made a yoeman's attempt to elucidate one specific cognitive distortion, but admittedly the attempt failed miserably even before the foundation for elucidating could be fully established (for reasons also previously explained). I have accepted that, and determined it is pointless to argue other specifics until certain specified things change.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-