God Having Sex with Mary

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_ajax18
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Post by _ajax18 »

My belief in evolution MAGNIFIES my awe and wonder at our existence. I treasure our ancestry. The fact that we came from an exploding star truly fills my spirit with a wonder I can't describe. The fact that we came from animals gives me a sense of humility and gratitude that I can't articulate in words.


Agreed and I've felt the same way.

I'm frustrated becaues this point doesn't seem to be heard. It is NOT sex that is the problem... it is the idea that the God of the universe is not more advanced than us, new to the scene primates.


I thought I stated that I agreed with this. I was just stating from a contemporary LDS perspective that family, sex, and a primate looking body were things that God shared with his lower creation man. Perhaps it seems perverse to some that God had sex with Mary. It seemed a little odd to me when I first heard it. My rape comment was just me trying to illustrate the point that just because something seems odd, perverse, or doesn't quite fit our ideal doesn't mean that it didn't happen or wasn't true.

I fully respect your view that God could be something different, and given the scientific evidence available it is just a much or more plausible than my own. Whether He's presented that way to make it comprehensible to us, or really is I don't know.

God could have created man like play-do out of mud had He/She preferred to do so, yet He seems to have chosen a very natural and passive way in evolution. This way involved as little supernatural power and dramatic events as possible.

Now you're point that I fail to understand that man is not the end of evolution is well taken. I had never considered this and was speaking from an LDS perspective. I'd have to do a lot more thinking to come up with something like that because I have no idea what the implications would be on all of my current beliefs. This idea would force me to reconsider the resurrection, family unit, and who we are completely, and you would seem to know more about this than I do, but as of now in my understanding such views seem completely out of sync with LDS philosophy. Once you figure it all out and if you perhaps turn out to be right, as evolution turned out to be right, you can show us how it all fits. Yet the idea of a God in something other than a primate form leaves a plethora of unanswered questions right now as well.

I still hold that from an LDS perspective the most likely fit is that God had sex with Mary. Who would the other children had by Mary and Joseph be sealed to? We already face similar questions in temple divorces where the parties remarry and are sealed to someone else. How do we know God didn't become Mary's wife before they had sex? We don't know if she was sealed to Joseph in the temple, do we? I thought the story said she was just betrothed to Joseph when she got pregnant. It just seems to out of character for the God that I have learned about in Mormonism to do anything other than the least complicated and noninvasive way of doing something. I say noninvasive as opposed to the use of supernatural powers and things that don't really follow or go beyond our common biology to effect earthly events as being invasive.

The question is, will we adapt thereby allowing the continuation of our species or will we try to hold onto archaic ideas and die?


If anything what's killing us is that people aren't dying fast enough. But yes, I agree, you have a point on this.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Yoda

Re: God Having Sex with Mary

Post by _Yoda »

ajax18 wrote:
liz3564 wrote:When I first heard that several Church prophets honestly believed that God came to earth and had sex with Mary, I was horrified.

And yet, this concept didn't seem to bother my husband at all.

Why is there such a different mindset on this among many TBM's?


If you don't accept the Bible, than I don't see the point in debating whether God had sex with Mary or not since it would all be myth. I find harmony and Truth Dancers ideas about God being something we couldn't imagine interesting and for all I know possible, but definitely not Biblical.

"God overpowering Mary," I really don't think that is how it happened. I don't think of God as a rapist. Perhaps that's why modern prophets were careful to point out that in the eternities Mary would be sealed to God the Father, and was married to Joseph for time.

While email has been shown to be a superior way of communication, I don't see artificial insemination as being superior to sex. It also fits with Mormon doctrine that we believe in procreation through sexual reproduction, not artificial insemination. Again, if you don't accept these doctrines than I'm sure it's all wide open and pointless to debate anyway.

Yes Liz the feminist ideal is probably some sexless form of reproduction where female red type personalities are able to maintain complete and absolute power and overcome our evolutionary past. You wouldn't be from an island off the coast of British Colombia would you?


No, I don't have a feminist ideal that a sexless form of reproduction is superior. However, I do feel that if man was able to discover a sexless form of reproduction, and God created our ability to utilize intelligence, that surely He would be aware that there was a way to do this.

The reason I have a problem with God having sex with Mary is that Mary is his daughter. Any way you slice it, it is incest....even if she is supposedly sealed to him as a second wife in the eternities.....UNLESS....Mary is, in reality, our Heavenly Mother....and came to earth to perform the sacred duty of being the vessel for Christ. I suppose that could be another theory...and, frankly, that seems to be the theory that the Catholics hold to, since they also worship Mary, and believe that Mary remained a virgin permenantly. Their thesis is that Mary never had any children by Joseph...that Joseph had been married previously, and that the other children in the household were his alone. However, considering that it is noted that Jesus has a younger brother, this doesn't really hold water either. As you stated in your earlier post, this leads to the problem of who the other children of Mary and Joseph are sealed to in the hereafter.
Last edited by _Yoda on Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Ajax,

Thanks for the fun conversation... :-)

Now you're point that I fail to understand that man is not the end of evolution is well taken. I had never considered this and was speaking from an LDS perspective. I'd have to do a lot more thinking to come up with something like that because I have no idea what the implications would be on all of my current beliefs. This idea would force me to reconsider the resurrection, family unit, and who we are completely, and you would seem to know more about this than I do, but as of now in my understanding such views seem completely out of sync with LDS philosophy. Once you figure it all out and if you perhaps turn out to be right, as evolution turned out to be right, you can show us how it all fits. Yet the idea of a God in something other than a primate form leaves a plethora of unanswered questions right now as well.


I hear many folks suggest people don't believe in the LDS church because they were offended, sinned, were lazy, etc. etc. For me, your comment is exactly why I do not believe in the church. Simply it doesn't fit with my understanding/experience/awareness of life and our universe.

You precisely identify the problem with the LDS church as I see it.

We have a very, VERY good understanding of how the universe came to exist. We have a 14 billion year history upon which to draw information. We know the powers of the universe, we know how things work in large measure... the LDS teachings in my opinion do not fit in the least.

To make all the LDS teachings fit into the reality of our universe, one has to completely exist in a foreign universe in my opinion.... or twist the teachings so far that they no longer remotely resemble the actual teachings (which of course we see in some folks).

As you implied, if one wants to keep the LDS beliefs one has to virtually ignore the realities of our universe, in my opinion. I think that is why there is fear in learning about the real world in some cases... it 'forces' one to reevaluate their beliefs.

The "God having sex with Mary" idea is, in my opinion such a good example of folks limiting God, holding onto an archaic belief, anthropomorphizing the divine, putting the grandure and magnificence of our universe into a very tiny, miniscule earthly box. I just can't make it fit.

~dancer~

Now... it could be that every scientist in the world is being fooled by Satan, and the earth was really created in six days, and the man/God placed Adam and Eve on the earth from a different planet from another solar system, and God has an advanced form of fluid in his flesh and bone body, and he enjoys the primate form of sex. It just seems like such a complete and utter make-believe, primitive fantasy that it is hard for me to believe. I do acknowledge that it may be my faulty brain that can't believe such a story
_ajax18
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Re: God Having Sex with Mary

Post by _ajax18 »

Any way you slice it, it is incest....


Yeah that sounded a little strange, but the scriptures are full of cases of incest. We're all brothers and sisters of Heavanly Father. So in a way we all married our siblings. Now a parent with a child does seem a little harder to deal with and at the very least whatever Heavanly life is like, it doesn't seem to mimic earth life much at all in this respect. I guess when I heard it I just figured, God was ok with incest in some cases. Yeah I know, it still sounds gross.

You've got a point with the Mary is Heavanly mother idea, but considering the other problems that brings up, I think the incest one is easier to deal with. I asked a TBM once when the Da Vinci code came out about the problems with Jesus having offspring. Wouldn't they have 1/4 divine DNA? Have any of you heard a good answer to this?
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi Ajax, from your post:
Yeah that sounded a little strange, but the scriptures are full of cases of incest. We're all brothers and sisters of Heavanly Father. So in a way we all married our siblings. Now a parent with a child does seem a little harder to deal with and at the very least whatever Heavanly life is like, it doesn't seem to mimic earth life much at all in this respect. I guess when I heard it I just figured, God was ok with incest in some cases. Yeah I know, it still sounds gross. (Bold added) And, it does sound strange, at least and utterly absurdly unbelievable at most!


Re the bolded: Yes, and of other atrocities supposedly perpetrated by "God" or at "his" command. While primitives might have thought such to be the case, their endorsement in no way validates, confirms or establishes such actions to be embraced by thinking folks from their time to ours... And yet there are those who follow leaders who are still comitted to antiquity and a "God" who does not excist. IMSCO, that is... Roger
_Yoda

Re: God Having Sex with Mary

Post by _Yoda »

ajax18 wrote:
Any way you slice it, it is incest....


Yeah that sounded a little strange, but the scriptures are full of cases of incest. We're all brothers and sisters of Heavanly Father. So in a way we all married our siblings. Now a parent with a child does seem a little harder to deal with and at the very least whatever Heavanly life is like, it doesn't seem to mimic earth life much at all in this respect. I guess when I heard it I just figured, God was ok with incest in some cases. Yeah I know, it still sounds gross.

You've got a point with the Mary is Heavanly mother idea, but considering the other problems that brings up, I think the incest one is easier to deal with. I asked a TBM once when the Da Vinci code came out about the problems with Jesus having offspring. Wouldn't they have 1/4 divine DNA? Have any of you heard a good answer to this?


There are several theories from TBM's that I have heard regarding this. Most simply believe that Jesus did not have any children....that he was crucified before he was able to conceive...but that he was, indeed, married.

I think that it is entirely possible that Jesus was not only married, but had offspring. The whole 1/4 God DNA thing is nonesense....again...God is God...He can do what he wants to do regarding heredity.
_ajax18
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Post by _ajax18 »

I've said this before and you guys are going to think I'm crazy but this does have scientific backing according to my genetics professor in college. Inbreeding is only bad in the short run, but overall in evolutionary history it is a good thing because the bad genes become exposed and die out. It actually creates a stronger population in the long run, yet because the immediate effects of inbreeding are worse than not inbreeding our human society has evolved to make it a taboo. If I remember right it takes around 20 generations for the overall effect to turn from negative to positive. So my point being I don't necessarily see something inherently evil in incest. To me it's clearly a man made law or a law given relative to a specific set of circumstances that are subject to change. Now you could argue that all laws are man made and that would lead to a more in depth philosophical discussion.

The Church has long had to admit that God's laws given to us are relative to different conditions and not always applicable. e.g. Nephi killing Laban, Abraham lying, Jesus breaking the Sabbath. I doubt Paul and Peter followed all the laws of the land. Thus in my view all of Christianity has to grapple with the concept of moral relativism. My question is what is it that they are ultimately relative to or what should all law ultimately be relative to? Is it justice, the good of all human beings? Do we include animals? It gets very complicated, and I haven't heard a satisfactory theory that solves all that. To me God doing these things does not necessarily mean He is not good. I think their is still room to say that perhaps we don't understand enough to make an adequate judgment.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

ajax18 wrote:I've said this before and you guys are going to think I'm crazy but this does have scientific backing according to my genetics professor in college. Inbreeding is only bad in the short run, but overall in evolutionary history it is a good thing because the bad genes become exposed and die out. It actually creates a stronger population in the long run, yet because the immediate effects of inbreeding are worse than not inbreeding our human society has evolved to make it a taboo. If I remember right it takes around 20 generations for the overall effect to turn from negative to positive. So my point being I don't necessarily see something inherently evil in incest. To me it's clearly a man made law or a law given relative to a specific set of circumstances that are subject to change. Now you could argue that all laws are man made and that would lead to a more in depth philosophical discussion.

The Church has long had to admit that God's laws given to us are relative to different conditions and not always applicable. e.g. Nephi killing Laban, Abraham lying, Jesus breaking the Sabbath. I doubt Paul and Peter followed all the laws of the land. Thus in my view all of Christianity has to grapple with the concept of moral relativism. My question is what is it that they are ultimately relative to or what should all law ultimately be relative to? Is it justice, the good of all human beings? Do we include animals? It gets very complicated, and I haven't heard a satisfactory theory that solves all that. To me God doing these things does not necessarily mean He is not good. I think their is still room to say that perhaps we don't understand enough to make an adequate judgment.


Point taken...but incest between a parent and child is crossing the line in my opinion(even if both parent and child are adult).
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Ajax... :-)

Thus in my view all of Christianity has to grapple with the concept of moral relativism. My question is what is it that they are ultimately relative to or what should all law ultimately be relative to? Is it justice, the good of all human beings? Do we include animals? It gets very complicated, and I haven't heard a satisfactory theory that solves all that.


It is only complicated if one believes ancient ideas are factual and from God, or that some of the hundreds of millions of people are actually really hearing the voice of God.

I see no need for moral relativism whatsoever.

~dancer~
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

Traditional Christians would deny any fowl connection between Leda and the Golden Egg, whereas Mopologists would find it just ducky.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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