Mister Scratch wrote:A final question: Am I misreading you, or are you now saying that it is YOU who is suffering from cog-dis?
Yes, I have, and do now, suffer from various cognitive distortions. Obviously.
From my anecdotal experience, I have reasonably observed that there were quite a few people driving the same roads as me, and subjected to many, if not all, of the same road situations as me, who didn't experience "road rage" (the Mr. D's of driving as it were). This alerted me to the possibility that my emotional reactions were not necessary. After becoming acquainted with CBT, I discovered why I experienced those unnecessary emotions, and how to, through pragmatic and socratic reasoning, to healthily correct and prevent them from happening again (not to be confused with "supressing" the emotions).
The same has been true with how I was affected by online antagonist that I have encountered over the years (mostly at ZLMB). I noticed that not all apologist were as hurt or angered by the antagonist as I was (the Mr. D's of LDS apologetics as it were), and that alerted me to the possibility that my emotional reactions were not necessary. CBT has helped me there as well.
I could go on. But, that should suffice in answering your question.
Mister Scratch wrote:My thoughts: I find it interesting that you see fit to compare disaffected exmos and critics of the Church with Nazi Holocaust victims. I suppose your assumption is something along the lines of, "Hey, if the Jews did it while in the concentration camps, you [exmos] can do it too!" However, I think the comparison is borderline offensive and unfortunate indeed. Do you really want to posit the Church as being akin to the Nazis? You say it's an "extreme case," but again, do you want to portray the Church as being, essentially, a watered-down version of Nazi Germany?
Well, the other week he was comparing us to Anti-semites. Wade seems to take a special joy in comparing exmos to people he considers to not be "normal". Either we're victims or we're perpetrators, but in the end we're not normal happy people. If we were, we'd still be LDS.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
Here is, in part, the CBT process that I went through in uncovering and correcting the cognitive distortions that led to my "road rage".
1. When experiencing certain negative emotions or undesired moods, CBT suggests that I note the specifics of the situation I was in at the time of the extreme emotions. The importance in doing this is to detect certain patterns so as to illuminate plausible anticedents or triggering mechanism for the extreme and unwanted emotion/mood.
I won't bother to list them for you, but I detected several triggers--not the least of which were instances where I was needlessly delayed in my travels.
2. The next step in the CBT process is to examine and deliniate what thoughts were going through my mind at the time of the extreme and undesired emotions/moods. When I experienced "road rage" I experienced various obvious thoughts--not the least of which was: "what an idiot that other driver was for doing X to me?"
However, these obvious thoughts, on their face, don't generally envoke extreme emotions like 'road rage". Viewing someone as an idiot doesn't necessarily make me angry. And, while the incovenience of idiotic driving may warrant a modest level of frustration, I don't think it deserving of "rage".
So, there must be other thoughts engendering the "rage".
3. CBT teaches the patient to think deeper and there detect some of the very subtle, nearly imperceptible, thoughts which give meaning to the more obvious thoughts. These are called "automatic thoughts", and are a function of our self-preceptions as well as our perception of our relationship to others. For example, some of the automatic thoughts that I had during "road rage" were: "that is unfair"..."he/she doesn't respect me or care about the needs and safety of others"...etc. These automatic thoughts would lead to other related automatic thoughts such as: "I must be worthless and unvalued by that person"...."maybe I am not worthy of value".
The meaning attached to the obvious thoughts by these automatic thoughts can be significant, and thus engender extreme emotional reactions.
3. CBT then teaches the patient to rationally evaluate the automatic thoughts to see if they are reasonable and fair, or cognitive distortions. This is done in a two-step process:
a) List evidence in support of the automatic thoughts. (For example: I figured that people who value and respect me wouldn't unnecessarily delay me in my travels.)
b) List evidence that does not support the automatic thoughts (For example: I noticed that the drivers were often oblivious to me and at time pre-occupied with talking on their cell phones or trying to be polite, etc.)
4. CBT also teaches the patient to come up with and seriously consider alternative/balanced ways of looking at the same evidence. (For example: I figured the other drivers weren't so much intentionally trying to disrespect or devalue me, as they were simply preocuppied with their own driving experience. In other words, they were clueless. Their poor driving wasn't a reflection of me, but of them. They were the one with the problem, not me.)
5. Finally, CBT teaches the patient to, once they have completed steps 1-4, to then evaluate their mood. For me, my "rage" would significantly subside, and over time I experienced it less frequently.
Next, I will explain how I used that same process to deal with a very difficult and emotionally disturbing work situation in past.
I once worked for an internation finance corporation with which I had started on the ground floor and had, over the decade that I worked for the company, strived hard to succeed and advance in the company.
However, I had one boss in particular who I believed had it in for me, and seemingly thwarted and undermined me in my progression at every turn.
This was incredibly disheartening and discouraging to me, and fomented my depression, and caused me no little anger and grief.
However, by applying the CBT process to this very trying situation, I experience a radical change of heart and mind, and my mood and view of the situation turned quite positive.
In abbreviated form, here is what happened: one day as I sat brooding in my cubical and revolting at the mere site of my boss (whose glass-windowed office was in clear eye-shoot from where I sat), in a moment of honest introspection and rational examination of the situation, I questioned whether it was reasonable for me to believe that my boss had devoted the kind of countless hours in planning and implementing required to accomplish the level of sabatoge that I had attributed to him. The thought then struck me that, even though he was a relatively intelligent person, he really wasn't as clever and cunning or smart enough to pull off the things I had imagined. The thought also struck me that his mind was more than likely preoccupied with doing his own job, and when he left work, I likely didn't even register as a blip on his mental and emotional radar. In short, I had given him far too much credit for my personal corporate difficulties.
I also thought it wise and fair to shift focus from him to myself, and honestly acknowledge my own part in my difficulties. This was a real challenge given how hard I believe I had tried to succeed. However, I came to realize that even in spite of my good intents and efforts, I had my short-comings, and there were not a few things that I did in my youthful zeal, that were off-putting and even unwittingly undermining of my own success and the possible success of the company. Mostly, I was niave to, and in large measure resistant to, company politics and the corporate culture. I dysfunctionally attempted to make the company fit my ideal, rather than trying to fit in with the company or find a company where there was a better fit.
This realization helped greatly to improve my mood and view of the situation as well.
More significantly, though, my heart and mind was most changed when I stopped focusing on me and my specific challenge, and I stood up and looked around at all my co-workers, and suddenly realized just how much positive and good that had resulted, and would likely result, from the company in general, and my boss in particular. Numerous employees received ample income to feed, cloth, and house their respective families. For the most part they drove nice cars and wore nice cloths, and had sufficient money left over to buy grown-up toys, travel, and go on wonderful and refreshing vacations. They had a generous health and retirement plan, and not a few were provided the opportunity to increase their education. Add to this the literally millions of customers around the globe who were benefited by the products and services we as a company provided.
When I compared my relatively nominal personal challenge to all the substantial positive and good that I had then fairly and charitably realized the company as doing, it was literally dwarfed and cognizantly rendered virtually insignificant. Consequently, where once I was accusatory and blaming, I then became complementary; and where once I had felt miserable and cheated, I then felt an overwhelming sense of gratitude and appreciation.
Now, the company hadn't change a bit from one moment to the next, but I had. My extreme emotions weren't supressed, but rather they were disapated or supplanted through the correcting and rebalancing of certain cognitive distortion. And, as I look back on that experience (I left the company some years ago), I don't look with hurt and anger and grief and resentment, but rather with pride, and joy, and appreciation.
With these two example in mind for how CBT has helped me overcome certain extreme and debilitating emotions in my personal life, perhaps the foundation has been sufficiently laid for discussing how CBT has, and may yet, help me and Loran and others in appropriately and healthily dealing with antagonism against our sacred and revered faith.
Excellent discussion Wade (except for those giant Carboniferous deerflies flying around looking for someplace in which to sink their thirsty beaks) and an interesting vignette about road rage (something I, unfortunately, have had to deal with in the past)
Most of my study of CBT has been peripheral in the sense that I have studied aspects of it targeted pretty much soley at addtictive/compulsive behavior. I'm clearly going to have to get the primary core texts and so some deeper reading. The relavence of this to the rather rarefied world of active ex-Mormonism is quite fascinating (and obviously, in being fascinating to people like us, makes people like Scratch and Runtu about as nervous as sheep in an Appalachian trailer park)
Of course, my interest, CBT wise, isn't in sincere and honest theological differences or actual gray areas of LDS history. Its the revisionist counter-history that bespeaks, many times, less than ingenuous motives and the mocking theological rancor that lays bare something other than honest dessent from Mormon concepts.
Wade, I was just wondering tonight about the Mormon Rite of Exorcism, and thought you would be the one person to know the most about it. What can you tell me about it?
moksha wrote:Wade, I was just wondering tonight about the Mormon Rite of Exorcism, and thought you would be the one person to know the most about it. What can you tell me about it?
This is way off-topic. Please feel free to start another thread discussing it. But, since I have no idea that such a so-called "rite" exists, I can't be of much help. I am acquainted with the rather rare occurance of casting out evil spirits, but for reasons of my own I am disinclined to discuss the topic--particularly on a thread where it is irrelevant.
wenglund wrote:I once worked for an internation finance corporation with which I had started on the ground floor and had, over the decade that I worked for the company, strived hard to succeed and advance in the company.
However, I had one boss in particular who I believed had it in for me, and seemingly thwarted and undermined me in my progression at every turn.
This was incredibly disheartening and discouraging to me, and fomented my depression, and caused me no little anger and grief.
However, by applying the CBT process to this very trying situation, I experience a radical change of heart and mind, and my mood and view of the situation turned quite positive.
In abbreviated form, here is what happened: one day as I sat brooding in my cubical and revolting at the mere site of my boss (whose glass-windowed office was in clear eye-shoot from where I sat), in a moment of honest introspection and rational examination of the situation, I questioned whether it was reasonable for me to believe that my boss had devoted the kind of countless hours in planning and implementing required to accomplish the level of sabatoge that I had attributed to him. The thought then struck me that, even though he was a relatively intelligent person, he really wasn't as clever and cunning or smart enough to pull off the things I had imagined. The thought also struck me that his mind was more than likely preoccupied with doing his own job, and when he left work, I likely didn't even register as a blip on his mental and emotional radar. In short, I had given him far too much credit for my personal corporate difficulties.
I also thought it wise and fair to shift focus from him to myself, and honestly acknowledge my own part in my difficulties. This was a real challenge given how hard I believe I had tried to succeed. However, I came to realize that even in spite of my good intents and efforts, I had my short-comings, and there were not a few things that I did in my youthful zeal, that were off-putting and even unwittingly undermining of my own success and the possible success of the company. Mostly, I was niave to, and in large measure resistant to, company politics and the corporate culture. I dysfunctionally attempted to make the company fit my ideal, rather than trying to fit in with the company or find a company where there was a better fit.
This realization helped greatly to improve my mood and view of the situation as well.
More significantly, though, my heart and mind was most changed when I stopped focusing on me and my specific challenge, and I stood up and looked around at all my co-workers, and suddenly realized just how much positive and good that had resulted, and would likely result, from the company in general, and my boss in particular. Numerous employees received ample income to feed, cloth, and house their respective families. For the most part they drove nice cars and wore nice cloths, and had sufficient money left over to buy grown-up toys, travel, and go on wonderful and refreshing vacations. They had a generous health and retirement plan, and not a few were provided the opportunity to increase their education. Add to this the literally millions of customers around the globe who were benefited by the products and services we as a company provided.
When I compared my relatively nominal personal challenge to all the substantial positive and good that I had then fairly and charitably realized the company as doing, it was literally dwarfed and cognizantly rendered virtually insignificant. Consequently, where once I was accusatory and blaming, I then became complementary; and where once I had felt miserable and cheated, I then felt an overwhelming sense of gratitude and appreciation.
Now, the company hadn't change a bit from one moment to the next, but I had. My extreme emotions weren't supressed, but rather they were disapated or supplanted through the correcting and rebalancing of certain cognitive distortion. And, as I look back on that experience (I left the company some years ago), I don't look with hurt and anger and grief and resentment, but rather with pride, and joy, and appreciation.
With these two example in mind for how CBT has helped me overcome certain extreme and debilitating emotions in my personal life, perhaps the foundation has been sufficiently laid for discussing how CBT has, and may yet, help me and Loran and others in appropriately and healthily dealing with antagonism against our sacred and revered faith.
Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Hey, Wade. I noticed something. In both of your examples, you wind up realizing that the people you are so angry about are actually good, well-meaning people. So, does this mean you're going to extend that same sort of humane generosity to critics and antagonists of your "sacred and revered faith"? Now that I would like to see.
Mister Scratch wrote:Hey, Wade. I noticed something. In both of your examples, you wind up realizing that the people you are so angry about are actually good, well-meaning people. So, does this mean you're going to extend that same sort of humane generosity to critics and antagonists of your "sacred and revered faith"? Now that I would like to see.
Yes, of course, with relatively few exceptions, I would extend that same "humane generosity" to critics and antagonists of my sacred and revered faith. Obviously.
And, while I once was angry with these good folks (I was never angry with the critics, just the antagonists), I no longer am--due in large part to CBT and the subsequent change it had on my perception of the Church's antagonitst--not unlike, in principle, the change I experienced with "road rage" and my challenges at work.
In my next post on this thread I will explain more specifically that change in perception.