A new interview with Tal

[_Tal Bachman]

Wade, I posted my edit prior to knowing that you posted a reply. We must have been typing at the same time.

I realized Mormonism was a fraud in late 2003, which I think I mentioned above. Isn't that a specific enough date for you? I think it was some day late in October.

And by the way - and if you believe nothing else I ever say on here, believe this - my reluctance to waste my time pinning numbers to individual emotions isn't because I'm "threatened" by you or your questions, Wade. I'm happy to answer anyone's questions as long as I'm not simply helping enable more cult-sponsored mindgames.

[_harmony]

Tal has indicated he was depressed? When?

You're trying to correlate leaving the church with depression? Anger isn't depression. Frustration isn't depression. Heck, having the blues isn't depression.

You realize, of course, that Beck's depression scale doesn't work, if the person isn't depressed?

[_Tal Bachman]

Don't know that I'd say I was depressed, Harmony. I was sad.

[_harmony]

Don't know that I'd say I was depressed, Harmony. I was sad.

there's a long ways between sadness and clinical depression, Tal. If Wade doesn't know this, he has no business even asking the question.

[_Sam Harris]

Reading that makes me sick to my stomach. Literally, its in knots right now.

I don't even have a responce.

Why?

[_Tal Bachman]

Harmony, on another thread Wade made reference to a "Masters in Psyche"...You know what I'm saying? He also claims he's a Kantian while apparently knowing virtually nothing about the thought of Kant; also claims to believe in the Book of Mormon while claiming that "knowing the truth of all things" is impossible pace Moroni 10; started a website about "sexual disorders", which - leaving aside the strange, rambling prose on that site - would strike probably even the loons at FARMS as beyond embarrassing; appears to think that anyone who makes plain to him the many contradictions in his beliefs is cognitively-challenged...That he might not appreciate the difference between feeling sorrow and something like clinical depression can't be that surprising.

I try to be polite, but like I said on another thread, I see now why even people who think Mormonism is evil, feel only pity for Wade. In particular, I heard one passionate foe of Mormonism express sympathy for him. This person also said Dan Peterson had really been an *ss to him...(hard to believe, I know).

[_Runtu]

Wade's use of a typical cognitive therapy approach made me smile, as I've seen this numeric scale before. The problem here is that the scale, to be effective, should be filled in by the depressed or anxious person. Wade's attempt to fill in the blanks for Tal simply doesn't work, for more than one reason:

1. Wade doesn't get the "situation," so it's difficult for him to understand the causes of any emotions Tal experienced.
2. Wade doesn't know what kind of emotion Tal experienced, hence his wrongly guessing that depression was involved.
3. Wade doesn't know the intensity of the unknown emotion, so his guess of "10" may or may not be wildly off. Give his track record in assigning extremely irrational anger to me, I'd say he's pretty far off.
4. Given these unknowns, it's nigh unto impossible to suggest improvements in critical thinking that would resolve problems that Wade can only guess at.

That's my issue with these long-distance therapy sessions: there's way too much guesswork involved.

[_Sam Harris]

"allegedly educated ignorance" ROFL!

In other words, Wade, it's bad to know what you're talking about. It's better to be pompous, over inflated, and yet really clueless about what's going on around you. Right! Got it!

[_wenglund]

Harmony,

I had hoped to not have to address your derailment further, but I thought it best to not let your insipid misunderstandings below go uncorrected.

Tal has indicated he was depressed? When?

I indicated Tal was depressed? When? (Hint: I didn't)

What I did was proffer depression as good example (one of many that could be proffered) of where frequency/duration are legitimately used in social science and sociology as a means of measuring things, like emotions, that are not externally visible. Why am I not surprised that with your alleged education, you would yet fail to grasp that simple and obvious point, but instead confused it with something I never said nor could reasonably be thought as having suggested?

You're trying to correlate leaving the church with depression?

I am? Where? (Hint: I's not. And, one cannot reasonably suggest that I have.)

Anger isn't depression. Frustration isn't depression. Heck, having the blues isn't depression.

Nothing I have said could reasonably be interpreted as suggesting otherwise.

You realize, of course, that Beck's depression scale doesn't work, if the person isn't depressed?

Yes, and nothing I have said could reasonably be interpreted as suggesting otherwise.

Are you familiar with CBT?

Are you aware that it is legitimate form of therapy (its precepts and practices having been confirmed through rigorous scientific studies) and was established by Doctorates in the field?

Are you aware that the textbook for CBT (Cognitive Therapy: Basics and Beyond) outlines the exact same emotion rating system that I used?

If so, what does that suggest about your claim that "I'm not sure it's productive to try to use a frequency scale or even a rating scale to describe situations like this. All you end up with in the end is a useless meaningless number"? (Hint: it means that you were wrong)

Hopefully, you won't derail the thread any further with your inanity, though I won't hold my breath.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

Wade's use of a typical cognitive therapy approach made me smile, as I've seen this numeric scale before. The problem here is that the scale, to be effective, should be filled in by the depressed or anxious person. Wade's attempt to fill in the blanks for Tal simply doesn't work, for more than one reason.

Could you give some examples of where I supposedly filled in the blanks for Tal? (Hint: I didn't. First of all, you will not find one of the blanks filled in with the word "depression", nor will you in any reasonable way find where I had suggested that Tal was depressed--see my explanation to Harmony above. Second, the #10 rating for sorrow was a direct quote from Tal--see the second sentence of paragraph 3 of Tal's first reply to me on this thread. Third, note also that my consolidation was taken from what Tal had said in his first post on this thread, and I asked if it was correct. He said it was "per se unobjectionable". Fourth, note also that I asked questions of him to get clarification for filling in the blanks that I saw as unspecified. In other words, I was getting HIM to moe specifically fill in those blanks. Fifth, note also that I had indicated that if Tal felt it objectionable to be more specific in HIS filling in the blanks, that would be fine with me, and we could proceed with what HE had given. In other words, I wouldn't be filling in the blanks for him, but using what HE had already filled in HIMSELF. So, why you would suppose that I would be filling in the blanks for him, is anyone's guess. Certainly, you would have no rational reason for thinking so.)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-