A new interview with Tal

[_Runtu]

Wade's use of a typical cognitive therapy approach made me smile, as I've seen this numeric scale before. The problem here is that the scale, to be effective, should be filled in by the depressed or anxious person. Wade's attempt to fill in the blanks for Tal simply doesn't work, for more than one reason.

Could you give some examples of where I supposedly filled in the blanks for Tal? (Hint: I didn't. First of all, you will not find one of the blanks filled in with the word "depression", nor will you in any reasonable way find where I had suggested that Tal was depressed--see my explanation to Harmony above. Second, the #10 rating for sorrow was a direct quote from Tal--see the second sentence of paragraph 3 of Tal's first reply to me on this thread. Third, note also that my consolidation was taken from what Tal had said in his first post on this thread, and I asked if it was correct. He said it was "per se unobjectionable". Fourth, note also that I asked questions of him to get clarification for filling in the blanks that I saw as unspecified. In other words, I was getting HIM to moe specifically fill in those blanks. Fifth, note also that I had indicated that if Tal felt it objectionable to be more specific in HIS filling in the blanks, that would be fine with me, and we could proceed with what HE had given. In other words, I wouldn't be filling in the blanks for him, but using what HE had already filled in HIMSELF. So, why you would suppose that I would be filling in the blanks for him, is anyone's guess. Certainly, you would have no rational reason for thinking so.)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I did not say that you had used the word "depression" and I'm not sure why you think I did. But, I stand corrected that you used the number 10 from Tal and you made an attempt to fill in the table using Tal's descriptions. I am sorry for misunderstanding.

I still find it very difficult for you to quantify an experience that you really know nothing about. Most therapists have their patients fill in their own blanks, not try to do so for them in a per se unobjectionable manner.

[_wenglund]

Wade, I posted my edit prior to knowing that you posted a reply. We must have been typing at the same time.

I realized Mormonism was a fraud in late 2003, which I think I mentioned above. Isn't that a specific enough date for you? I think it was some day late in October.

Okay, this gives me at least something a little more specific to work with. However, as a point of clarification, which, if not all of the emotions you listed (anger, sorrow, fear, saddness, shock, nausea--anxiety/panic?) occured during the situation above (i.e. upon realizing that Mormonism was a fraud in late October of 2003), or did they all occur at that time?

If so, would the following be accurate?

Situation: moment of realization that Mormonism was a fraud in late October of 2003
Type Emotions: anger, sorrow, fear, saddness, shock, nausea (anxiety/panic?)
Rate Emotion: ?, 10, ?, ?, ?, ?

What connection do you see between the situation (i.e. your realization) and the emotions experienced at that time?

What was going through you mind (thoughts and images) at the time? (I am not looking here for thoughts and images that lead up to your realizations, but thoughts and images that resulted from the realization)

Once we have adequetly explored the situation above, it might be of benefit to explore this current situation--i.e. in the last day or so your interpreting my rather benign interview with you on this thread as a "mindgame", and interpreting my attempts at getting further clarification here as "blocking", and your presuming that I would view your reluctance in providing certain clarifications (particularly rating your emotions) as you feeling "threatened" by the questions, and your your interpreting your efforts here as supposedly facilitating or enabling "someone's ongoing attempt at keeping themselves in a cult-sponsored psychological maze." In other words, it might be beneficial to explore whether YOU have reacted in a reasonable or extreme way to my relatively few, simple, and straightforward questions about YOU. In short, why have you spent and inordinate amount of your time answering my question about YOU, by talking about ME? ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Jason Bourne]

Your Stake President told you the church isn't true? WHAT THE HELL??????

I've pretty much been told the same thing countless times: My problem, apparently, is that I took the church seriously. I believed its claims to be true. But now my friends, family members, and some church leaders tell me that I shouldn't have believed in it literally. Think of it as a club that helps you raise your kids; it doesn't really matter that its claims don't hold up. Why do you care anyway?

I have run into a number of people, including some prominent members and leaders in my area,when discussing the foundational issues as they really seem to be that will admit that the Church may not be exactly what we thought but that it is still divine and Joseph Smith was a prophet in some sense. Most I have talked to shelve the difficult issues. However, these numbers are still limited and my guess is most active members and local leaders believe the Church is true in exactly the way they testify. But there may be others that are just afraid to speak about it openly.

[_Runtu]

Your Stake President told you the church isn't true? WHAT THE HELL??????

I've pretty much been told the same thing countless times: My problem, apparently, is that I took the church seriously. I believed its claims to be true. But now my friends, family members, and some church leaders tell me that I shouldn't have believed in it literally. Think of it as a club that helps you raise your kids; it doesn't really matter that its claims don't hold up. Why do you care anyway?

I have run into a number of people, including some prominent members and leaders in my area,when discussing the foundational issues as they really seem to be that will admit that the Church may not be exactly what we thought but that it is still divine and Joseph Smith was a prophet in some sense. Most I have talked to shelve the difficult issues. However, these numbers are still limited and my guess is most active members and local leaders believe the Church is true in exactly the way they testify. But there may be others that are just afraid to speak about it openly.

I agree. I've met all kinds of people in the church. The ones that dismay me are those who don't believe it's divine but tell me I need to go with the program, anyway. And yes, they have been a small number, but unfortunately, I've met way too many of them since "outing" myself as an unbeliever.

[_wenglund]

Wade's use of a typical cognitive therapy approach made me smile, as I've seen this numeric scale before. The problem here is that the scale, to be effective, should be filled in by the depressed or anxious person. Wade's attempt to fill in the blanks for Tal simply doesn't work, for more than one reason.

Could you give some examples of where I supposedly filled in the blanks for Tal? (Hint: I didn't. First of all, you will not find one of the blanks filled in with the word "depression", nor will you in any reasonable way find where I had suggested that Tal was depressed--see my explanation to Harmony above. Second, the #10 rating for sorrow was a direct quote from Tal--see the second sentence of paragraph 3 of Tal's first reply to me on this thread. Third, note also that my consolidation was taken from what Tal had said in his first post on this thread, and I asked if it was correct. He said it was "per se unobjectionable". Fourth, note also that I asked questions of him to get clarification for filling in the blanks that I saw as unspecified. In other words, I was getting HIM to more specifically fill in those blanks. Fifth, note also that I had indicated that if Tal felt it objectionable to be more specific in HIS filling in the blanks, that would be fine with me, and we could proceed with what HE had given. In other words, I wouldn't be filling in the blanks for him, but using what HE had already filled in HIMSELF. So, why you would suppose that I would be filling in the blanks for him, is anyone's guess. Certainly, you would have no rational reason for thinking so.)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I did not say that you had used the word "depression" and I'm not sure why you think I did.

Here is why. You said: "Wade's attempt to fill in the blanks for Tal simply doesn't work, for more than one reason....Wade doesn't know what kind of emotion Tal experienced, hence his wrongly guessing that depression was involved."

This can be abbreviated to say: Wade attempted to fill in the blank for Tal with his guess that depression was involved.

However, you know best what you said and meant, and so I accept your correction.

But, I stand corrected that you used the number 10 from Tal and you made an attempt to fill in the table using Tal's descriptions. I am sorry for misunderstanding.

I still find it very difficult for you to quantify an experience that you really know nothing about. Most therapists have their patients fill in their own blanks, not try to do so for them in a per se unobjectionable manner.

Apology accepted and genuinely valued and honored.

However, again, I am not trying to quantify Tal's experience for him. I am trying to get him to quantify it himself.

And, besides, the quantification is not all that critical (as evinced by my willingness to proceed without it). It is merely useful in helping me understand the degree and extent to which he personally believes he experienced the stated emotions, and to also compare what he believes he experienced then against what he currently believes he feels now, so as to measure progress.

I am curious, though, as to why you have felt a need to press this issue. What is the worst you think may happen were Tal to rate all the emotions as requested? In fact, what is the worst you think may happen were I to go against my own intents and wishes, and rate Tal's emotions for him?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Runtu]

Apology accepted and genuinely valued and honored.

However, again, I am not trying to quantify Tal's experience for him. I am trying to get him to quantify it himself.

And, besides, the quantification is not all that critical (as evinced by my willingness to proceed without it). It is merely useful in helping me understand the degree and extent to which he personally believes he experienced the stated emotions, and to also compare what he believes he experienced then against what he currently believes he feels now, so as to measure progress.

I am curious, though, as to why you have felt a need to press this issue. What is the worst you think may happen were Tal to rate all the emotions as requested? In fact, what is the worst you think may happen were I to go against my own intents and wishes, and rate Tal's emotions for him?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I've already stated why I have "felt a need to press this issue." For one, I believe that such long-distance psychotherapy is unproductive. And for another, you have shown yourself to be more interested in using CBT as a weapon against those you disagree with.

Do I think Tal is going to get hurt? Nope, but I don't see any point to this exercise other than yet again to raise the level of interpersonal rancor here.

[_wenglund]

Apology accepted and genuinely valued and honored.

However, again, I am not trying to quantify Tal's experience for him. I am trying to get him to quantify it himself.

And, besides, the quantification is not all that critical (as evinced by my willingness to proceed without it). It is merely useful in helping me understand the degree and extent to which he personally believes he experienced the stated emotions, and to also compare what he believes he experienced then against what he currently believes he feels now, so as to measure progress.

I am curious, though, as to why you have felt a need to press this issue. What is the worst you think may happen were Tal to rate all the emotions as requested? In fact, what is the worst you think may happen were I to go against my own intents and wishes, and rate Tal's emotions for him?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I've already stated why I have "felt a need to press this issue." For one, I believe that such long-distance psychotherapy is unproductive. And for another, you have shown yourself to be more interested in using CBT as a weapon against those you disagree with.

Do I think Tal is going to get hurt? Nope, but I don't see any point to this exercise other than yet again to raise the level of interpersonal rancor here.

Just to clarify, my question was obviously specific to your pressing, on this thread, the issue of the rating of emotions, not your general perceptions about how I may or may not be using CBT on this board and what interpersonal affect it may or may not have resulted therefrom.

Apparently, though, you see my benign request for Tal to rate his stated emotions as somehow me using CBT as a weapon in a way that raises the level of interpersonal rancor here.

Granted, there as been some "rancor" on this thread, and much of it has been a product of my benign request that Tal rate his emotions.

I wonder, though, if the "rancor" is a reasonable or extreme reaction to my benign request.

But, as indicated previously to Tal, that is a matter that may be beneficial to explore once we have adequately addressed Tal's 2003 situation and associated emotions.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Runtu]

Apology accepted and genuinely valued and honored.

However, again, I am not trying to quantify Tal's experience for him. I am trying to get him to quantify it himself.

And, besides, the quantification is not all that critical (as evinced by my willingness to proceed without it). It is merely useful in helping me understand the degree and extent to which he personally believes he experienced the stated emotions, and to also compare what he believes he experienced then against what he currently believes he feels now, so as to measure progress.

I am curious, though, as to why you have felt a need to press this issue. What is the worst you think may happen were Tal to rate all the emotions as requested? In fact, what is the worst you think may happen were I to go against my own intents and wishes, and rate Tal's emotions for him?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I've already stated why I have "felt a need to press this issue." For one, I believe that such long-distance psychotherapy is unproductive. And for another, you have shown yourself to be more interested in using CBT as a weapon against those you disagree with.

Do I think Tal is going to get hurt? Nope, but I don't see any point to this exercise other than yet again to raise the level of interpersonal rancor here.

Just to clarify, my question was obviously specific to your pressing, on this thread, the issue of the rating of emotions, not your general perceptions about how I may or may not be using CBT on this board and what interpersonal affect it may or may not have resulted therefrom.

Apparently, though, you see my benign request for Tal to rate his stated emotions as somehow me using CBT as a weapon in a way that raises the level of interpersonal rancor here.

Granted, there as been some "rancor" on this thread, and much of it has been a product of my benign request that Tal rate his emotions.

I wonder, though, if the "rancor" is a reasonable or extreme reaction to my benign request.

But, as indicated previously to Tal, that is a matter that may be beneficial to explore once we have adequately addressed Tal's 2003 situation and associated emotions.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

No rancor here, Wade. :-) Just bemusement; hence my mentioning that your use of the numeric scale made me smile.

[_rcrocket]

Tal:

Why do you post in your own name instead of anonymously with a pseudonym?

P

[_wenglund]

With all the off-topic discussions, I am not sure if Tal say this post or not. So, I thought I would repost it just in case:

Wade, I posted my edit prior to knowing that you posted a reply. We must have been typing at the same time.

I realized Mormonism was a fraud in late 2003, which I think I mentioned above. Isn't that a specific enough date for you? I think it was some day late in October.

Okay, this gives me at least something a little more specific to work with. However, as a point of clarification, which, if not all of the emotions you listed (anger, sorrow, fear, saddness, shock, nausea--anxiety/panic?) occured during the situation above (i.e. upon realizing that Mormonism was a fraud in late October of 2003), or did they all occur at that time?

If they all occured at that time, then would the following be accurate?

Situation: In late October of 2003 there was a moment of realization that Mormonism was a fraud
Type Emotions: anger, sorrow, fear, saddness, shock, nausea (anxiety/panic?)
Rate Emotion: ?, 10, ?, ?, ?, ?

What connection do you see between the situation (i.e. your realization) and the emotions you experienced at that time?

What was going through you mind (thoughts and images) at the time? (I am not looking here for thoughts and images that lead up to your realizations, but thoughts and images that resulted from the realization)

Once we have adequetly explored the situation above, it might be of benefit to explore this current situation--i.e. in the last day or so your interpreting my rather benign interview with you on this thread as a "mindgame", and interpreting my attempts at getting further clarification here as "blocking", and your presuming that I would view your reluctance in providing certain clarifications (particularly rating your emotions) as you feeling "threatened" by the questions, and your your interpreting your efforts here as supposedly facilitating or enabling "someone's ongoing attempt at keeping themselves in a cult-sponsored psychological maze." In other words, it might be beneficial to explore whether YOU have reacted in a reasonable or extreme way to my relatively few, simple, and straightforward questions about YOU. In short, why have you spent and inordinate amount of your time answering my question about YOU, by talking about ME? ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-