If I were a Christian......

[_Sam Harris]

<sigh> So much for Loran's vow to lay off the cheap shots.

That's why I didn't reply to his pathetic apology, in which he blamed his behavior on anger at all of us. The only reason he apologized to Jason was because Jason supports the LDS faith.

[_Yoda]

I would be incapable of having thirty-five billion dollars in my pocket while people starve.

I couldn't tell little girls that their sole purpose in life is to have children and serve a husband.

I would never lie.

I would insist that anything less than an egalitarian society is not good enough.

The evidence that we have does not point to the existence of Jesus. Still, I can't help hoping and wishing that He existed because I think that if we actually followed His teachings, we would literally save the world.

Question:

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is a historical figure, a fable, or the actual savior of the world?

Thanks,

Cricket

Let's see if we can get this thread back on track.

Hi, Cricket! Welcome to the board! :)

I am what you would call a liberal Mormon or "cafeteria Mormon".

There are aspects of the Church I agree with, and aspects I disagree with. As far as your specific OP....

If someone has $35 billion dollars, then setting up a program for those who are starving can work and learn how to fend for themselves is definitely the best option, in my opinion. These people should get the immediate help they need, and then jobs need to be created so that they can continue to provide for their families.

I agree that women can definitely do more than have children. Motherhood and marriage, however, are both wonderful things, when approached in the right context. Having a husband who is an equal partner, a best friend, a lover, and a co-parent is a relationship worth having, and worth striving for, in my opinion. It's not about the wife serving the husband. It's about the husband and wife serving each other.

Children are a blessing, but they are also a HUGE commitment. I have teen-aged daughters, and I am strongly encouraging them to complete college before having children. Obviously, when they're adults, they can make their own decision, but it is a lot harder to finish your education after children are here, then before. I completed my bachelor's and master's degree at 38. It wasn't easy. I wish I had completed school before having my kids.

I agree that lying is not a good thing; I always strive to be honest in my personal and business dealings. If someone can't trust your word, you can't really have that much of a relationship with them.

Egalitarianism is, indeed, an ideal situation. I think that if we subscribed to Jesus' commandment of loving one another, this type of society would fall more into place.

Yes, I do believe that Jesus Christ was both a historical figure and the Savior of the world.

[_Mister Scratch]

Coggins7 wrote:
Quote:
No, Loran. The reason you won't be responding to me is because you are weak. I defy you to supply one single instance in which I was "intellectually [dis]honest."

Now Scratch is beginning to sound like Jesse Ventura.

???? Is this yet another of your hilarious, parodic rejoinders?

Yes.
Quote:

While I agree that we shouldn't take ourselves to seriously, I wonder if you think parody of your "sacred beliefs" is okay.... Would you consider that to be "a nice reality check"? Or blasphemy?

I don't recall responding to any sacred beliefs Cricket held, not am I sure at this early juncture she has any to speak of.

You didn't answer my question.

Better put the lampshade back on your head, because you're still not funny.

I prefer putting Arab terrorists in a big pile and putting woman's underwear on their heads, but to each his own.

Sort of like the soldiers at Abu Ghraib, you mean?

Kiss the "no ad hominem" promise goodbye! Speaking of which, I didn't appreciate being told that I ought to have my genitals bitten by Black Widow spiders, Loran. Not very nice.

First of all, that predates my apology, and secondly, your're giving me ideas. Stop setting yourself up like this.

You were the one who said it.

What "forsaken desert"? The United Order was put into place well before Salt Lake City.

These were still survival conditions in undeveloped territories under pre-industrial nineteenth century conditions. My observation still applies.

Then you shouldn't have said "forsaken desert."

:
One indication of this is simply that, from an economic standpoint, Scocialism simply doesn't work.

This isn't necessarily correct.

In fact its precisely correct, and there is over two centuries of empirical and historical evidence to prove it.

Feel free to provide the evidence, then. Citations would be nice. I know they are anathema to you, but hey, I can still ask, can't I?

[_rcrocket]

Feel free to provide the evidence, then. Citations would be nice. I know they are anathema to you, but hey, I can still ask, can't I?

Oh my gosh. From the man of non-substance who lacks the ability to ever provide references. One as shallowly-read as you should not be on this board taking such dominating positions.

May I test you? Do you possess Quinn's two Power books?

P

[_Mister Scratch]

Feel free to provide the evidence, then. Citations would be nice. I know they are anathema to you, but hey, I can still ask, can't I?

Oh my gosh. From the man of non-substance who lacks the ability to ever provide references. One as shallowly-read as you should not be on this board taking such dominating positions.

May I test you? Do you possess Quinn's two Power books?

P

What, are you blind? You demanded a Quinn citation from me some weeks ago, promising to apologize to me once I provided it. I did, and yet for some reason your forgot to keep your promise. Did you know that a promise unkept is a lie?

[_rcrocket]

Feel free to provide the evidence, then. Citations would be nice. I know they are anathema to you, but hey, I can still ask, can't I?

Oh my gosh. From the man of non-substance who lacks the ability to ever provide references. One as shallowly-read as you should not be on this board taking such dominating positions.

May I test you? Do you possess Quinn's two Power books?

P

What, are you blind? You demanded a Quinn citation from me some weeks ago, promising to apologize to me once I provided it. I did, and yet for some reason your forgot to keep your promise. Did you know that a promise unkept is a lie?

Uhh. I seem to recall that you provided a citation give you by Rollo.

What is the sixteenth word on page 295 of Extensions?

What is the fifth word of page 97 of "New Approaches"?

Heh heh.

P

[_Mister Scratch]

Feel free to provide the evidence, then. Citations would be nice. I know they are anathema to you, but hey, I can still ask, can't I?

Oh my gosh. From the man of non-substance who lacks the ability to ever provide references. One as shallowly-read as you should not be on this board taking such dominating positions.

May I test you? Do you possess Quinn's two Power books?

P

What, are you blind? You demanded a Quinn citation from me some weeks ago, promising to apologize to me once I provided it. I did, and yet for some reason your forgot to keep your promise. Did you know that a promise unkept is a lie?

Uhh. I seem to recall that you provided a citation give you by Rollo.

What is the sixteenth word on page 295 of Extensions?

The word is "Fifty," as in "Council of Fifty."

What is the fifth word of page 97 of "New Approaches"?

Heh heh.

P

I don't know this reference.

[_rcrocket]

What is the sixteenth word on page 295 of Extensions?

The word is "Fifty," as in "Council of Fifty."

What is the fifth word of page 97 of "New Approaches"?

Heh heh.

P

I don't know this reference.[/quote]

You have half an apology. If you don't know the reference to "New Approaches" you probably aren't that well-read and are too young in the arena of Mormon theological debate.

P

[_Runtu]

What is the sixteenth word on page 295 of Extensions?

The word is "Fifty," as in "Council of Fifty."

What is the fifth word of page 97 of "New Approaches"?

Heh heh.

P

I don't know this reference.

You have half an apology. If you don't know the reference to "New Approaches" you probably aren't that well-read and are too young in the arena of Mormon theological debate.

P[/quote]

I read "New Approaches" years ago, but no, I don't own a copy. I usually borrow books from the library or from people who have money to spend on such things. It's funny that at the time, I was afraid to talk to Brent Metcalfe because he was an "enemy," even though he worked on the same floor that I did.

[_Mister Scratch]

What is the sixteenth word on page 295 of Extensions?

The word is "Fifty," as in "Council of Fifty."

What is the fifth word of page 97 of "New Approaches"?

Heh heh.

P

I don't know this reference.

You have half an apology. If you don't know the reference to "New Approaches" you probably aren't that well-read and are too young in the arena of Mormon theological debate.
P[/quote]

Ah, yeah. Okay. What a convincing argument. This would be like me telling you that you are unqualified to be a lawyer simply because you don't have quick access to some legal book. Looking up a page number is a pretty lame measure of somebody's knowledge and/or skills, P.

The bottomline is that I provided the reference I had. You have long been accusing me of dishonesty in this arena, and you owe me a legit apology. Notice too that I provided the reference promptly, unlike you, who I had to pester for weeks in order to get you to post the MMM letter.

Finally, I cannot remember the last time I even attempted to engage in "theological debate." Most of the debates I've participated in have to do with history, or with interpretation of text/doctrine, or with the contemporary Church, and not theology per se.