If I were a Christian......

[_ozemc]

I just can't help looking at the name of this thread and thinking of the song "If I were a rich man" from Fiddler on the Roof!

[_rcrocket]

In the first century Christianity was very very small poor and insignificant. It is remarkable that we have any record at all.

You are underestimating the power and volume of Roman literary history.

So, I reiterate, is there any contemporaneous evidence of Jesus? Your answer is basically there need not be, but I'd still like an answer to my question. Brackite says there is plenty of evidence. I'd like to know to what he/she/it refers.

P

[_rcrocket]

What the...? Are you honestly trying to counter the claim that Jesus was a historical figure? What on earth are you thinking, P.?

Do you believe Jesus to be a historical figure?

[Next question: On what basis?]

P

[_Brackite]

I do indeed believe that Jesus Christ is a historical figure. I believe that there is a lot of evidnece for this.

State your best contemporaneous evidence outside of the purported contemporaneous New Testament. Please.

P

Here are some:

The main sources of information regarding Jesus' life and teachings are the four canonical Gospels of the New Testament: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Most scholars in the fields of history and biblical studies agree that Jesus was a Jewish teacher from Galilee, who was regarded as a healer, was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on orders of the Roman Governor Pontius Pilate under the accusation of sedition against the Roman Empire.[3] [4] A very small number of scholars and authors question the historical existence of Jesus, with some arguing for a completely mythological Jesus.[5]

^ Raymond E. Brown, The Death of the Messiah: From Gethsemane to the Grave (New York: Doubleday, Anchor Bible Reference Library 1994), p. 964; D. A. Carson, et al., p. 50-56; Shaye J.D. Cohen, From the Maccabees to the Mishnah, Westminster Press, 1987, p. 78, 93, 105, 108; John Dominic Crossan, The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant, HarperCollins, 1991, p. xi-xiii; Michael Grant, p. 34-35, 78, 166, 200; Paula Fredriksen, Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, Alfred A. Knopf, 1999, p. 6-7, 105-110, 232-234, 266; John P. Meier, vol. 1:68, 146, 199, 278, 386, 2:726; E.P. Sanders, pp. 12-13; Geza Vermes, Jesus the Jew (Philadelphia: Fortress Press 1973), p. 37.; Paul L. Maier, In the Fullness of Time, Kregel, 1991, pp. 1, 99, 121, 171; N. T. Wright, The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions, HarperCollins, 1998, pp. 32, 83, 100-102, 222; Ben Witherington III, pp. 12-20.
^ Though many historians may have certain reservations about the use of the Gospels for writing history, "even the most hesitant, however, will concede that we are probably on safe historical footing" concerning certain basic facts about the life of Jesus; Jo Ann H. Moran Cruz and Richard Gerberding, Medieval Worlds: An Introduction to European History Houghton Mifflin Company 2004, pp. 44-45
^ a b Thomas L. Thompson The Messiah Myth: The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David (Jonathan Cape, Publisher, 2006); Bruno Bauer; Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy. The Jesus Mysteries: Was the 'Original Jesus' a Pagan God? London: HarperCollins Publishers, 1999, pp. 133, 158; Michael Martin, The Case Against Christianity (Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 1991), 36-72; John Mackinnon Robertson; G.A. Wells. The Jesus Legend, Chicago: Open Court, 1996, p xii.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus)

What Can We Learn About Jesus from Josephus?

How Would Josephus Have Learned About Jesus?

Having concluded that Josephus originally did refer to Jesus, would he have been in a place to offer any reliable information about him? Yes. According to leading New Testament scholar E.P. Sanders, "[b]y the standards of the day, [Josephus] was a very good historian, and for some parts of his historical narratives he had excellent sources." (Sanders, The Historical Figure of Jesus, page 16). Moreover, having lived in Judaea and Galilee, Josephus would have been in an excellent position to learn from Jewish sources about the early Christians and Jesus. Indeed, according to Josephus' own writings, he was in Jerusalem at the time that James the brother of Jesus was martyred. Additionally, Josephus -- living as a member of the imperial family in Rome -- would have had unprecedented access to Roman records. That he obtained accurate information about other religious sects, such as the Essenes, the Pharisees, and the Sadducees, and a similar historical figure in John the Baptist, is undisputed. That he had similar access to such traditions about Christians and their founder is therefore also very likely.

But some argue that since Josephus likely learned about Jesus from Christians, his evidence is worthless. There are too many problems with such an accusation to take this charge seriously. Not the least of which is that, for Jesus Mythologists like Doherty, that the only story Christians were telling Josephus in the first century was of a historical Jesus would be very troublesome indeed. In any event, there is no reason to believe Christians were Josephus' source and good reasons to believe that they were not.

[T]hat explanation will not do. Firstly, the distinctively non-Christian terminology we have noted suggests that Josephus is giving his own account. Secondly, there is no reason whatever for Josephus to even mention Jesus and Christianity at this point in his work at all unless he was convinced that the career and execution of Jesus was an actual event which occurred during the governorship of Pilatus. And thirdly, Josephus, a Jew who lived for much of his life in Palestine, is in a very different situation from Tacitus to know whether what he is told is true or not, and to have an interest in checking what he is told. Nor does the rest of his work encourage us to believe that he was in the habit of talking to Christians or using them as source of information.

If then . . . Josephus did originally include an account of Jesus in his record of the governorship of Pilatus, we have every reason to be confident that he had his own good reasons for believing what he wrote to be true.

(France, op. cit., page 31).

(http://www.bede.org.uk/Josephus.htm#what)

[_Sam Harris]

I do indeed believe that Jesus Christ is a historical figure. I believe that there is a lot of evidnece for this.

State your best contemporaneous evidence outside of the purported contemporaneous New Testament. Please.

P

What the...? Are you honestly trying to counter the claim that Jesus was a historical figure? What on earth are you thinking, P.?

That is what happens when you roll the pages of your Book of Mormon and smoke it, Scratch.

[_Sam Harris]

Hi Cricket, so now you know how diverse this "Community" is. LOL! AS in all groups high and low IQs, EQs, tolerances, bigotry, prejudice, charity, pretense, integrity, fairness, maliciousness, and BLAH-BLAH.... Sometimes a sounding board that can't seem to find, or stay on tune... like the harangue between the "pots" and "kettles" a few posts above who seem oblivious to the "Christian expectation" question you started all of this drama with :-) Just the way it is with evolving folks.

I gotta say your use of the word "CRAP" was EXTREMELY over reacted to, IMSCO. This IS the "TERRESTRIAL" zone...as i understand TERR... it is this world. For you to be censured by anyone for using that word in this world, well... But hey, that's how ya git ta know us, eh ;-) We's all different, "Praise da Lord!!!" One of the best here said:

Cricket, your ideas and concerns are on the mark and correct. However, I think that Christians have created a sort of dualist life, where church, sunday, and everything that revolves around that is sacred, and the rest of life is profane. They fail to ascribe full and true Christian principles to every aspect of their lives. As Christians, our duty is not just to assure our own salvation, but to assure the prosperity of the community as a whole, on every level possible, regardless of culture or belief. Sadly, Christianity in this country and across the globe has gotten so caught up in this "club mentality" that we seem to have, that we're missing the true point. And it's heartbreaking.

My boyfriend doesn't go to church. But he's more Christian than many I've met in my lifetime. I grew up with people who swore up and down they were sanctified and saved, yet they couldn't change their own kid's diapers but once a day, and damned everyone to hell who didn't agree with them. Sad, really. My grandma used to tell me I was going to hell every time she saw me.

Your vision is slowly becoming the vision of a new kind of grassroots Christianity that is more concerned with these issues, than with making sure everyone has a Bible in their hand. It's slow work, but I personally try to take heart that someday we'll be in a better place than we are now. (Do you mean here in this life? Or in an after-life in another realm??) Bold added by RM.

I admire you for posting your ideas.

To which i say, "AMEN, GIMR!!" Warm regards, Roger

Hey RM! Howyadoin? To answer your question, I think both. I believe in the inherent goodness in mankind. Sure, I believe man is a fallen creature, however, God's original creation was good. Sin is just a parasite to God's creation, and doesn't change us at our core. Think about it, most people have a conscience...that's the inherent goodness. But it's what we feed that grows, the good or the bad within us.

[_Sam Harris]

I just can't help looking at the name of this thread and thinking of the song "If I were a rich man" from Fiddler on the Roof!

Dude, I'm tempted to write a parody of that, seriously. That's classic!

[_moksha]

What the...? Are you honestly trying to counter the claim that Jesus was a historical figure? What on earth are you thinking, P.?

Do you believe Jesus to be a historical figure?

[Next question: On what basis?]

P

If Jesus were a fictional character, would this tend to bolster any LDS claims?

[_rcrocket]

(http://www.bede.org.uk/Josephus.htm#what)

[/quote]

As I thought.

This is your only source.

His references to Jesus were late additions.

See http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jd ... Jesus.html.

How old would Josephus have been upon Jesus' death? Probably not even born. Hardly contemporaneous evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus

So, that leads me to my next question. How is it that you believe in Jesus Christ when there is no contemporaneous evidence for Him outside of the miracle stories of the Gospels?

P

[_rcrocket]

What the...? Are you honestly trying to counter the claim that Jesus was a historical figure? What on earth are you thinking, P.?

Do you believe Jesus to be a historical figure?

[Next question: On what basis?]

P

If Jesus were a fictional character, would this tend to bolster any LDS claims?

I see that on this forum most folks, including MS and you, do not want to answer my questions out of the fear of where they might go.

Do you believe Jesus to be a historical figure?

On what basis?

P