BEASTIE: Please boycott the pundits forum!

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_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

Runtu wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:So in addition to being a CBT expert, you're a mind-reader too, fully capable of speaking about juliann's "evolution"? You never cease to amaze me, Wade.


You have to admit, it's a pretty clever tactic: She evolved, and you just weren't smart/aware/unbigoted to see it. Really, that argument is a thing of beauty.


Yes, you undoubtable encapsolated my comments here with as much stellar accuracy and precision as you typically have comprehended what I have said elsewhere on this board. Again, some things never change (or evolve). ;-)

The real thing of beauty is how people's own analogies (threads and rugs) and terminology (evolve) have ultimtely come back to bite them--whether they are willing to admit it or not (it is actually more amusing when they don't).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

wenglund wrote:
Yes, you undoubtable encapsolated my comments here with as much stellar accuracy and precision as you typically have comprehended what I have said elsewhere on this board. Again, some things never change (or evolve). ;-)


Oh, lighten up, Wade. Smile a little. :-)

The real thing of beauty is how people's own analogies (threads and rugs) and terminology (evolve) have ultimtely come back to bite them--whether they are willing to admit it or not (it is actually more amusing when they don't).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


I have a first aid kit here in my desk if you need to patch up those bite marks. ;-)
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

wenglund wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote: So in addition to being a CBT expert, you're a mind-reader too, fully capable of speaking about juliann's "evolution"? You never cease to amaze me, Wade.


I personally haven't laid claim to what you just said--at least not to the extent that you, in your own ironic bit of faulty mind reading and straw man construction impose on me. It is little wonder that your flights of fantasy leave you ceaselessly amazed. Frankly, your Don Quixote-like world view is amazing to me as well, if not also amuzing. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Have you even actually read Don Quixote, Wade? I only ask due to your tendency to make all sorts of claims without any sources or real evidence to back them up.

Anyways, it was *you* making the argument that juliann has "evolved." I see no evidence for that. I especially don't see any evidence from you.
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Mister Scratch wrote:Have you even actually read Don Quixote, Wade? I only ask due to your tendency to make all sorts of claims without any sources or real evidence to back them up.

Anyways, it was *you* making the argument that juliann has "evolved." I see no evidence for that. I especially don't see any evidence from you.


Yep, that's why it was such a cool rhetorical device: make a claim Juliann didn't make, and provide no evidence, and then claim victory on the basis that the words "evolve" and "rug" came back to bite everyone in the butt except Wade.

I'm quite serious, it was awesome.

And I prefer the Pierre Menard version, myself.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Have you even actually read Don Quixote, Wade


No, he actually read Etoxiuq Nod
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Wade,

Please respond to this analogy:

A medical study testing the effectiveness of a drug on disease X. Research is conducted utilizing one specific drug and one specific population. The scientists share their results.

Mr. Quack decides to "expand" the definitional threads of the study, and declares that the studies support his contention that the specified drug not only works as a treatment for disease X, but also disease Y and Z!!!

You have any problems with that?


You really shouldn't, the new population wasn't discrete from the old population. The new population includes the old, and merely represents an expansion of the population. If so, then the research still applies to at least the portion of the population that has been retained, and if there are not substantial and relevant qualitative differences between the retained and added populations, then the research may reasonably be extrapolated to new population as a whole.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Here's the latest update from the pundits forum:

Juliann replied:

This thread never got close to where I wanted it to go. It has turned into a debate over terms. I have asked for feedback of my interpretation before continuing and I am very secure in what I am saying. You may disagree with my presentation and it is difficult to maintain intelligible dialogue on a fast moving message board forum, but I have no need to change my interpretations. I'm not going to exploit this by passing around emails, however. What you don't seem to understand is that these categories are on a continuum. Exiters exist on that continuum, not in descrete categorical boxes. You are taking it too literally to give it any practical meaning.

Where I do want to go...the conversion narrative...has been brought up in the thread in the open forum. That is where I asked for this one to stay and that is where I am going because there is too much clutter here. I have had this same discussion in previous threads as soon as the fighting over the word apostate died down. It has gone into market theory and the meaning of truth/reality. That is where it gets as bogged down as this thread is but it is satisfying in the meantime.

If I start with the conversion narratives rather than the apostate definitions it doesn't seem to get so bogged down in arguing whether Mormonism can produce apostates and who gets called one. My point remains that they exist, that they will become more noticeable on the internet when given platforms by orgs such as RFM and that they exhibit similar attributes that can be seen and analyzed...just like any other behavior.

To pretend this is an assault on all ex-Mormons is no more than an attempt to stifle discussion. Even if that were the case, I am doing this on a private Mormon board. If I were to wander the internet chasing down exies so I could yell apostate you might have a cause of complaint. But I am not the one posting defamatory remarks on mulitple websites about people or groups I disagree with. In fact, I am regularly accused of being cowardly because I do not go to other sites to argue with people.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... opic=20773


The reply I just posted:

I apologize for my lack of understanding. I didn't realize this was a private Mormon board - I was under the impression is was a board open to Mormons, exmormons, never-been-mormons, etc. I have never intruded myself on a "private Mormon board" and never will.

Once again, I am left with viewing participation on a board designed to supposedly allow conversation between people of opposing views, and yet apparently populated with folks who view the desire to participate on such boards in exmormons as "chasing down" Mormons as less than appealing.

You essentially forced me back onto this board to defend my statements against your gross distortions, and now the fact that I came here is seen as evidence of my problematic character.

I see no need for my further participation. I am quite satisfied that the information I have provided is sufficient to demonstrate that you have seriously misunderstood, at the best, or deliberately distorted, at the worst, the very source you depended on so significantly to develop your theory.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I don't regret going back to FAIR to respond to Juliann's egregious distortion not only of the Bromley text, but of the statements I made on Z, but I won't go back.

I'm becoming less and less interested in even reading the apologetics produced over there. It's like a song stuck in a groove, endlessly repeating the same phrase.

The place is a textbook case of confirmation bias - which is ironic because, on the apostate thread in the open forum, Nighthawke mentioning just recently reading about the phenomenon, and Juliann asked for more information. I know I've mentioned confirmation bias many times in numerous conversations, without clarification, because I always assumed a sort of baseline level of background knowledge about the world and how it works. I was literally stunned to see these two apparently so clueless about such a basic component of understanding the human mind. How does someone get to a graduate level of education without at least a cursory awareness of something so basic?

Go look at Dan Vogel's thread on inconsistencies in the Book of Mormon for more evidence. Why subject yourself to this?

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... opic=20670

or go read my long argument with Ben, one of the nicest apologists for whom I have a great deal of respect, regarding postmodernism and and Mormonism.

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispages ... =513.topic


I think that for the past several years I've had some sort of notion that discussing these issues with believers would help me understand religion, and how one continues to believe, and the human mind, and my own past, better - but it's just too frustrating, and ultimately an exercise in futility.


“So tenaciously should we cling to the world revealed by the Gospel, that were I to see all the Angels of Heaven coming down to me to tell me something different, not only would I not be tempted to doubt a single syllable, but I would shut my eyes and stop my ears, for they would not deserve to be either seen or heard.” (Luther) To rely on the evidence of the senses and of reason is heresy and treason. It is startling to realize how much unbelief is necessary to make belief possible. What we know as blind faith is sustained by innumerable unbeliefs. The fanatical Japanese in Brazil refused to believe for four years the evidence of Japan’s defeat. The fanatical communist refuses to believe any unfavorable report or evidence about Russia, nor will he be disillusioned by seeing with his own eyes that the cruel misery inside the Soviet promise land.

It is the true believers ability to “shut his eyes and stop his ears” to facts that do not deserve to be either seen or heard which is the source of his unequaled fortitude and constancy. He cannot be frightened by danger nor disheartened by obstacles nor baffled by contradictions because he denies their existence. Strength of faith, as Bergson pointed out, manifests itself not in moving mountains but in not seeing mountains to move. And it is the certitude of his infallible doctrine that renders the true believer impervious to the uncertainties, surprises and the unpleasant realities of the world around him.

Thus the effectiveness of a doctrine should not be judged by its profundity, sublimity or the validity of the truths it embodies, but by how thoroughly it insulates the individual from his self and the world as it is. What Pascal said of an effective religion is true of any effective doctrine: it must be “contrary to nature, to common sense, and to pleasure”.


Eric Hoffer
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

To pretend this is an assault on all ex-Mormons


OMG, she is still beating this straw man?

She must be desperate for points if she keeps relying on this botched lay-up.

How many time do we have to spell it out for her: YES JULIANN WE KNOW YOU ARE REFERRING TO A TINY GROUP OF EX-MORMONS

She tried pulling this crap in her email to Mauss, when I clearly said the opposite numerous times.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

OMG, she is still beating this straw man?

She must be desperate for points if she keeps relying on this botched lay-up.

How many time do we have to spell it out for her: YES JULIANN WE KNOW YOU ARE REFERRING TO A TINY GROUP OF EX-MORMONS

She tried pulling this crap in her email to Mauss, when I clearly said the opposite numerous times.


Exactly my point. How many times did I repeat that all three organizational types could produce all three types of exiters, and yet she still kept claiming I was denying that there COULD exist modern Mormon apostates.

It just gets to the point where you have to wonder if there is any possible justification for subjecting yourself to such crazy-making behavior.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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